DLQ or laying workers

[Dadnlad]

DLQ or laying workers

After a swift check in all my hives in the sun and 16 degrees on Sunday, we discovered one had plenty of bees and stores but 4 frames of drone brood laid mostly in worker cells

Guessing this is typical of 'laying workers' and the colony is doomed considering the earliness of the season and lack of available drones ?

We have no overwintered nucs to fall back on

Is there any chance that given a neighbouring hive is on 7 frames of brood and can therefore 'spare' a frame of eggs, and they can produce a new queen around the end of April, the resultant mating (or lack of) might be worth it ?

 

[Erichalfbee]

They won't make a new queen. They think they have one.
If the queen-right colony is strong you can unite the old bees with one and give them something to do. Throw the drone brood away or give it to your chickens

 

[mjt68]

You need to find some eggs - are there one per cell or lots. On the side of the cell or at the bottom? Is brood pattern normal or is it shotgun all over the place on several frames?

Either way I'm afraid the colony is doomed, best you can hope for is to use the workforce to strengthen neighbouring hive. Don't think trying to raise a queen with aging bees to try and get mated in April is worth the risk. If DLQ find, kill and shake out bees. If laying workers shake out bees. Pick a warm day to give them a chance and give a good smoking so workers can beg their way in with full crops. Remove old hive and bin any comb wrecked with drone cells.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

DLQ or laying workers

After a swift check in all my hives in the sun and 16 degrees on Sunday, we discovered one had plenty of bees and stores but 4 frames of drone brood laid mostly in worker cells

What's the laying pattern like? regular or sporadic and scattered?

 

[Dadnlad]

What's the laying pattern like? regular or sporadic and scattered?

From memory there were large central areas on both sides of the middle 2 frames, then smaller areas on both sides of the frames either side

Frames weren't out long enough to be looking for eggs as we were conscious of not chilling brood, but our notes show larvae visible

The laying pattern was steady with no big gaps, but mostly domed cappings on worker cells, but also clusters of 'proper' drone brood set apart to the edges - wish I had had the foresight to whip my phone out for reference

 

[Erichalfbee]

Then there is a queen somewhere

 

[Arfermo]

Laying workers usually can't lay on the bottom of cells - short thorax problem that some humans suffer from - and often lay more that one egg per cell up the sides.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

From memory there were large central areas on both sides of the middle 2 frames, then smaller areas on both sides of the frames either side

Frames weren't out long enough to be looking for eggs as we were conscious of not chilling brood, but our notes show larvae visible

The laying pattern was steady with no big gaps, but mostly domed cappings on worker cells, but also clusters of 'proper' drone brood set apart to the edges - wish I had had the foresight to whip my phone out for reference

DLQ not laying workers - regardless, IMHO there's no hope - just shake them out into a bush far enough away from the other hives.

 

[Cussword]

DLQ not laying workers - regardless, IMHO there's no hope - just shake them out into a bush far enough away from the other hives.

Will they then try and beg their way into the other hives to strengthen them and curing the problem if they have strong queens?


.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Will they then try and beg their way into the other hives to strengthen them and curing the problem if they have strong queens?


.

The colony is doomed and the bees are old ones from last year.
If you have a strong colony you could unite them. Minus the DLQ of course. Three days later take the frames away.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Will they then try and beg their way into the other hives to strengthen them and curing the problem if they have strong queens?
.

Yes - they'll beg a berth in other hives. if it's a laying worker problem (although I think it's a DLQ to be honest) the stronger queen pheremones in their host hives will supress their laying instinct

 

[Erichalfbee]

And the worker police will take care of any eggs.

 

[Dadnlad]

OK thanks all for your replies - looks like I'll be shaking them out on the next warm day this week

Not had to do it before, sad really as they were a strong colony going into winter, no disease or starvation issues, but presumably badly mated last year (caught prime that superceded in July)

You win some you lose some

Will teach me to put more effort into overwintering a couple of nucs each year

 

[Poly Hive]

Nucs are your insurance policy and you cannot legislate for bad mating. It is literally one of those things.

PH

 

[Millet]

Laying workers usually can't lay on the bottom of cells - short thorax problem that some humans suffer from - and often lay more that one egg per cell up the sides.

I may be being silly and childish here but what has the thorax got to do with the the spread of midget genes.. i thought the loving was in the abdomen area.

 

[BeeJayBee]

... but 4 frames of drone brood laid mostly in worker cells

Guessing this is typical of 'laying workers' and the colony is doomed considering the earliness of the season and lack of available drones ? ...

The pattern for laying workers is usually more random, doesn't look anything like a normal brood nest laid by a queen, and all the eggs will develop into drones.

A failing queen, one that's been poorly mated, will still sometimes throw out a fertilised egg and will almost always lay in the tight pattern we see in a good brood nest.

If the queen is laying a mix of fertilised and unfertilised eggs the end result can look fairly random, because the drone take longer to develop and so you see their capped cells in amongst a load of empty ones, or in the middle of visible eggs and young larvae.

OK thanks all for your replies - looks like I'll be shaking them out on the next warm day this week

Not had to do it before, sad really as they were a strong colony going into winter, no disease or starvation issues, but presumably badly mated last year (caught prime that superceded in July)

It is sad, but it's best getting it over and done with sooner rather than later because a dwindling colony can get robbed out, and the empty brood combs can become a haven for wax moth.

 

[Dadnlad]

Update: spent more time going through the central brood frames on this hive today knowing they were doomed anyway, and identified numerous cells with multiple eggs in - so laying workers confirmed

Placed a thawing queen in a cage on top bars and no resident queen came up

Moved hive away and closed up, bees all shaken out and accepted into other hives no problem

Bring on the swarms

 

[Poly Hive]

Reading through this thread again I do wonder what books some have. If any.

PH

 

[Arfermo]

I may be being silly and childish here but what has the thorax got to do with the the spread of midget genes.. i thought the loving was in the abdomen area.

Sorry. Should have written abdomen. Only novices might have been confused.