Different style insulated hives

[Madge]

... These are ones I tested in my paper. They came out the lowest performing in the tests.

Did you test Abelo Nationals? And what about the new Swienties with their big handholds?

(PS: What does your motto mean? This is what Google translate tells me: 'Mel does not honeycomb. Api, trees bee hives.' Clearly wrong.)

 

[TooBee...]

Hello everybody,
I see that this Thread is about Insulated Hives, and I had this in my Bookmarks, so thought you might find it interesting, it's a YouTube video of a guy adding insulation to his double walled hive.
youtube.com/watch?v=adXrovy6Gwo

I came across it on this website
bachbiodynamics.com/biodynamic-beekeeping.html

In theory having hives with insulation, even here in the UK, would reduce the amount of honey the bees need to consume to heat their hives. The thickness of a Hive wall is a lot thinner than that of a hollow tree trunk, so it might be more natural for them?

 

[maddydog]

Hello everybody,
I see that this Thread is about Insulated Hives, and I had this in my Bookmarks, so thought you might find it interesting, it's a YouTube video of a guy adding insulation to his double walled hive.
youtube.com/watch?v=adXrovy6Gwo

I came across it on this website
bachbiodynamics.com/biodynamic-beekeeping.html

In theory having hives with insulation, even here in the UK, would reduce the amount of honey the bees need to consume to heat their hives. The thickness of a Hive wall is a lot thinner than that of a hollow tree trunk, so it might be more natural for them?

Is DerekM on holiday in Ireland??

 

[Finman]

.
We in Finland have only insulated hives on winter. Biggest advantage is that spring build up is faster than on cold hive.
.
We have insulation in human houses too... But we do not keep mesh floors in human houses.

 

[Apiarisnt]

Hello everybody,
In theory having hives with insulation, even here in the UK, would reduce the amount of honey the bees need to consume to heat their hives. The thickness of a Hive wall is a lot thinner than that of a hollow tree trunk, so it might be more natural for them?

You are of course right, but one of the more active members of this forum (the Derek M referrred to) has been meticulously researching this and published an academic article on the subject: Int J Biometeorol. 2016 May;60(5):629-38. doi: 10.1007/s00484-015-1057-z. Epub 2015 Sep 3.
Ratios of colony mass to thermal conductance of tree and man-made nest enclosures of Apis mellifera: implications for survival, clustering, humidity regulation and Varroa destructor.
Mitchell D

Whereas I possibly went over the top last winter - but 100mm all round did save a very weak late swarm through to this season.

Have a look through the threads to see the discussions.

 

[Fusion_power]

There is always a balance point where a hive meets survival requirements for a given climate. A hive adapted to tropical Africa is not likely to meet requirements in UK conditions and vice versa.

Bees need a few things to winter successfully. Honey, pollen, water, protection from weather extremes, and a healthy colony of appropriate size. There is lively discussion about meeting each of these needs with one exception. Very little has been written and very few studies have been performed on water needs in winter. A colony has two ways to meet the need for water. They can fly out and forage for it, or they can produce it from metabolized honey. Since winter temperatures often prevent foraging, that leaves metabolized honey as the only source of water any time the bees are confined to the hive by cold temperatures. I've seen some colonies forage at 2 degrees with bright sunshine. At first I though they were looking for pollen, but then I saw them actively searching for water and realized pollen is not the only requirement to raise brood. How do bees produce water from honey? About 17% of honey is water and is released when the honey is "burned" by the bees to release energy. That is not the primary source of water, at best, it can produce about 1/3 of winter needs. The bulk of moisture in the hive comes from metabolizing sugar. 6 - O2 combine with 1 - C6H12O6 sugar molecule to produce 6 - CO2 and release 6 - H20. Every sugar molecule metabolized by the bees releases 6 molecules of water.

What happens when bees are put into a super insulated hive? They metabolize less honey and therefore produce less water. It turns out this is not a problem for a small cluster. Their surface area to volume ensures relatively rapid heat loss so plenty of honey is metabolized into water and heat. What about a large cluster, say a bit larger than a football? Now we have problems. The surface area vs volume reduces heat loss with the result the bees metabolize much less honey into water. This leaves the bees desperate for water at a time of year they can't fly out and collect it.

 

[Finman]

What happens when bees are put into a super insulated hive? They metabolize less honey and therefore produce less water. It turns out this is not a problem for a small cluster. Their surface area to volume ensures relatively rapid heat loss so plenty of honey is metabolized into water and heat. What about a large cluster, say a bit larger than a football? Now we have problems. The surface area vs volume reduces heat loss with the result the bees metabolize much less honey into water. This leaves the bees desperate for water at a time of year they can't fly out and collect it.

There is no such like super insulated hive. No one has such.

Big clusters have smallest problems in wintering.


Our bees are 6 months in winter cluster and they do not bring water from outside. If they need water, it is sign that they have brood. Bees cannot take water from snow.

They need water when they start brood rearing in large scale.
.

 

[JWF]

There is always a balance point where a hive meets survival requirements for a given climate. A hive adapted to tropical Africa is not likely to meet requirements in UK conditions and vice versa.

Bees need a few things to winter successfully. Honey, pollen, water, protection from weather extremes, and a healthy colony of appropriate size. There is lively discussion about meeting each of these needs with one exception. Very little has been written and very few studies have been performed on water needs in winter. A colony has two ways to meet the need for water. They can fly out and forage for it, or they can produce it from metabolized honey. Since winter temperatures often prevent foraging, that leaves metabolized honey as the only source of water any time the bees are confined to the hive by cold temperatures. I've seen some colonies forage at 2 degrees with bright sunshine. At first I though they were looking for pollen, but then I saw them actively searching for water and realized pollen is not the only requirement to raise brood. How do bees produce water from honey? About 17% of honey is water and is released when the honey is "burned" by the bees to release energy. That is not the primary source of water, at best, it can produce about 1/3 of winter needs. The bulk of moisture in the hive comes from metabolizing sugar. 6 - O2 combine with 1 - C6H12O6 sugar molecule to produce 6 - CO2 and release 6 - H20. Every sugar molecule metabolized by the bees releases 6 molecules of water.

What happens when bees are put into a super insulated hive? They metabolize less honey and therefore produce less water. It turns out this is not a problem for a small cluster. Their surface area to volume ensures relatively rapid heat loss so plenty of honey is metabolized into water and heat. What about a large cluster, say a bit larger than a football? Now we have problems. The surface area vs volume reduces heat loss with the result the bees metabolize much less honey into water. This leaves the bees desperate for water at a time of year they can't fly out and collect it.

That assumes their requirements for water are similar in both insulated and non insulated hives. If they are using the water to support certain metabolic processes (such as waste processing), then surely a lower metabolic rate also gives rise to a lower demand for water.

And if they are able to obtain water via the metabolism of carbohydrates, then there is nothing stopping the colony eating more than the absolute minimum they require for survival in order to generate additional water. They can open the cluster slightly and release the additional heat into the hive body.

 

[Fusion_power]

if they are able to obtain water via the metabolism of carbohydrates, then there is nothing stopping the colony eating more than the absolute minimum they require for survival in order to generate additional water. They can open the cluster slightly and release the additional heat into the hive body.

Makes sense to me and you, but the bees see it different. Mobus documented that bees desperate for water fly out of the hives in winter even on days they can't possibly return. Small clusters metabolize enough honey to meet their water needs. Large clusters do not. As finman noted, the highest need for water is during spring brood rearing. If inclement weather keeps the bees inside during this period, they can get very stressed for water. There are obvious climate related caveats. My climate is quite a bit different from the UK and more so from Finland.

 

[user 6228]

You need to read the detail of mobus experiments. Not all of his conclusions are valid.

 

[Finman]

.
I wonder why Fusion want to think about insulation in Alabama, because he has no experience about cold or insulation.

That I can say, that if a hive is full of brood, and snow covers ground one week, all larvae will die in every hive.

That had happened to me once during 25 years when I have fed pollen patty to bees.

Bees rear some brood on February under snow, even if out temps are -20C.

Theory about metabolize water is ridiculous. You cannot help them.

Moisture kills is another stupid idea. Arrange the hive so, that moisture does not kill.