Culling hives - options?

[AndyJThompson]

What a mixed lot we are all with very different thoughts and feelings on what would seem a very sensitive subject, but then that is how life becomes so diverse and interesting don't you think?

Farming which is what we are all doing tends to always be a bit biased to the farmer. We subject so much of our will on the bees that we can not presume some of the other, seemingly, benign practices they become unwilling part of they are truly happy with.

Oxalic Acid is not something we would do to ourselves but yet we do it so we can farm as much honey out of them as possible, if not for the honey what do we do it for? Its certainly not because they have requested it and we do know it causes them some harm!! Yes can all say its to keep the bees alive and numbers as high as possible but the varroa problem would maybe not be present with out our intensive involvement.

The list goes on to what we do to a number of different species of animal and plants. One may believe strongly in herbicides and insecticides, some certainly do not. We slaughter a huge array of animals in the simple definition of food.

I believe if i had a very big issue with my bees and they were causing another harm i would dispose of them. I am not a very experienced beekeeper and would follow a path I felt to be justified. I really do not believe we should be so judgmental of others options and courses of action.

Andy

 

[BeeJayBee]

My co-keeper & I are having a bit of a nightmare. We've got two hives - both have become extremely aggressive. We've moved them out of their urban location as they were attacking passers-by. We've got them out at the local association teaching apiary and were planning to re-queen.

However, their behaviour has deteriorated further and the experienced keepers at the apiary want shot of them before they mate with any of the other virgin queens or further make the apiary unworkable.

We're resigned to killing them. The only issue is there are a number of supers of honey on both hives. Anyone got any suggestions as to how we might clear the supers down on the same evening that we deal with the bees? Worst case scenario is that we sacrifice the crop but if anyone has some good ideas they'd be very welcome!

<sigh> I was told posting here was likely to be painful experience.

Killing both hives was a miserable, upsetting, decision. It came about through a combination of circumstances which left us with no other option. As noted in my post above, lessons have been learned and we hope never to find ourselves without the time and space to re-queen again.

Thanks to those that did try and help.

^^^ = back story

Chin up, Rob.

I'm also disappointed you ended up destroying the colonies but realistically there was probably little else you could do given the circumstances and local conditions.

I must say that I was not impressed by their BKA's stance.

Me neither, you'd have thought that the 'experienced' beekeepers would have offered more than complaints, and could even have used the problem as a learning exercise for new beekeepers rather than just pushing for destruction. It seems to set the wrong precedent.

 

[RobB]

As this is a public forum I feel compelled not to let the snide comments concerning the local BKA go unanswered.

They have been nothing but supportive both in personal time and advice as well as the offer to house our hives whilst we attempted to re-queen. The implication that the BKA keepers were blasé about the decision to destroy the colonies is entirely inaccurate and unwarranted.

Rob

 

[derekm]

^^^ = back story

Chin up, Rob.

I'm also disappointed you ended up destroying the colonies but realistically there was probably little else you could do given the circumstances and local conditions.


Me neither, you'd have thought that the 'experienced' beekeepers would have offered more than complaints, and could even have used the problem as a learning exercise for new beekeepers rather than just pushing for destruction. It seems to set the wrong precedent.

Our concern is that if must be done it should be done in the least stressful way for the bees as possible, regardless of the honey crop.
We know from our own experience acetone causes distress, from anecdotes on this forum so does petrol. Co2 causes a fanning response so that should be avoided. Then to prevent contamination to other colonies poisons should not be used.
From having to kill a few bees I can vouch for the argon approach. There is no agitation. They just rapidly slow down and stop moving. Nitrogen should be similar in affect. The honey is unaffected and will not differ in taste,smell or nutrition and will safe to either bee or human

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Nothing snide - fact. Or is it that you were hell bent on destroying them?

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Well whoever "the experienced beeks at the apiary" who "want shot of them" are then.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Co2 causes a fanning response so that should be avoided.

How often have you used Co2 ? i never seen any fanning response at all, and use it quite extensively.

 

[REDWOOD]

OMG, I can't believe what I have just read!!!
I think this whole thread should be deleted before the media gets hold of it and we don't use oxalic acid so we can get as much honey as possible we use it to keep bees alive, have you ever seen a collapsed DEAD colony from varroa mites, not a pretty sight.
Shameful

 

[peteinwilts]

shameful indeed

I have been criticised on more than one occasion for having a live and let live policy with my bees, despite those with an attitude producing more honey and more varroa resistant.
Less fun to keep, but I enjoy the challenge of trying to tame them.

Hives are nasty for a reason...

I have had a number of hives turn nasty due to ant invasions. Generally short lasting.

People that drink, smoke, OD in deodorant, Body odour, garlic, curry, and even smelly washing detergents can have an effect on the temperament of the bees.... or if not one, the 'wrong' combination of the above, and is not consistent between hives.
I do not consider myself a smelly person, but midges will eat me alive whilst ignoring the wife. On the flipside, bees will sometimes ignore me, and harass a visitor.... or the other way round. We all smell of something, and we cannot necessarily smell it.

The weather can turn bees nasty

I have moved a nasty hive. When in its new home, they were like lambs.

I have split unpleasant double broods, into at least two single broods and all turn peaceful. I find this occurs often. this may be to do with swarm fever, or huge bee numbers that seem to make the bees quite tetchy..

elderly queens can turn bees nasty. replacement queen required.

bad genes. replacement queen required.

It is shameful that any person calling themselves a beekeeper would nuke a hive, rather than dealing with the problem and\or finding a solution.

If I was faced in such a position, I would rather give them away rather than killing them. there is ALWAYS a solution.
I am in the opposite position. I rehome (and tame!) nasty hives.

A few years ago I collected a truly savage hive from Southampton. The owner was going to deal with it with petrol. The hive was parked next to some conifers.
When it got it back to my 'swarm apiary', it was not exactly tame, but much more tolerant and easier to work with. During the remainder of that year the hive brought in 160lb of honey. The splits\generations I made from that hive are a little tetchy, but are the hardest workers I have and bring considerably more honey, and drop fewer mites than all of my peaceful hives. In addition, I often use their offspring for rearing peaceful queens as they are more defensive than the laid back for defending smaller NUC's during wasp season.

I believe that anyone that nukes a hive 'because they had no choice' is full of crap!

 

[peteinwilts]

Oxalic Acid is not something we would do to ourselves but yet we do it so we can farm as much honey out of them as possible, if not for the honey what do we do it for?

Why would a beekeeper go out of their way to rehome bumblebee nests. I, among many others often do this and have never ever charged.
I once took a bumblebee nest out of a compost bin that was next to an alley that led to a school.
The lady was a primary school teacher and was lovely, but the guy treated me with suspicion, and could not understand the concept that I would do something that did not result in financial gain. As I explained... I was doing it for the bees.

I have also medicated bees that have been in trees that cannot be extracted. Yes, I paid for the treatment, but I did it for the bees.

I use Oxalic to try and keep my bees healthy. No other reason.

Unfortunately, this 'why should I?... what is in it for me?' mentality is a disease that is spreading.... not all of us are driven by financial gain.

 

[Ely]

I am surprised at the attitude of your association. Hives becoming aggressive is yet another part of beekeeping and can even be shown to new beekeepers as an example of what can happen. This is what beesuits were invented for. I see no excuse for the apiary not to give you a chance to requeen. Drone cull if they were worried about genes.

 

[oliver90owner]

Not contributed to this thread until now.

The way I see it is: Some can, some can't. Some will, some won't. Some do, some don't.

Boils down to simply this. If you keep bees in your garden you should have an alternative safe location for just this scenario.

Nothing more to add, except that I have had a colony in the garden, that has necessitated removal before
now. How many on here tell new beeks it is perfectly OK to keep bees in the garden? How many warn that an alternative should be available? Not so many of us.

You can read garden as including allotments or close to any public access.

This case? Unnecessary mainly for the above and lack of immediate action. Following bees don't neccessarily sting; try swatting them, and they will. I've seen a wide spectrum of bee behaviour and read about it on here, too. Dead dogs and chickens included.

 

[enigmatica]

I only have very limited experience but a recent swarm I took were a pretty nasty bunch. A few days in their new comfy home with plenty of grub and they've settled down to be very tolerant of my bunglings.



I'll go and count my blessings now...

 

[Itchy]

Why would a beekeeper go out of their way to rehome bumblebee nests. I, among many others often do this and have never ever charged.
I once took a bumblebee nest out of a compost bin that was next to an alley that led to a school.
The lady was a primary school teacher and was lovely, but the guy treated me with suspicion, and could not understand the concept that I would do something that did not result in financial gain. As I explained... I was doing it for the bees.

I have also medicated bees that have been in trees that cannot be extracted. Yes, I paid for the treatment, but I did it for the bees.

I use Oxalic to try and keep my bees healthy. No other reason.

Unfortunately, this 'why should I?... what is in it for me?' mentality is a disease that is spreading.... not all of us are driven by financial gain.

I too rehome bumbles, but I charge as I have bills to pay. Do you do this for a hobby?

Medicate bees in a tree that cannot be moved?? Against or for what?

Just curious

 

[derekm]

How often have you used Co2 ? i never seen any fanning response at all, and use it quite extensively.

I must admit thats just from the literature on Co2 response... which is refering to much lower levels of CO2 than this. The point is they do have receptors and responses to Co2. So in principle it can cause distress before they go under, in practice it can be different, as CO2 is not chemically inert and can act (at least in other animals) as an anaesthetic rather than just by hypoxia.

However in a crowded hive in less than experienced hands... there exists a potential to cause distress with CO2.
I know both CO2 and nitrogen are used to anaesthesise small numbers of bees (again from the literature) for queen breeding, Have you used it on entire colonies? what happened?

 

[bunbury]

Nonsense! honey did not enter in to the equation just safety.

Judge not,that ye be not judged

 

[Outlander]

Oh that's alright then. Welcome to the age of throwaway beekeeping. Don't like your bees? then just bin them and buy another lot

And I'm sure you could find someone to take them off your hands.

 

[AndyJThompson]

I certainly do not keep bees for a financial gain all my honey is given away.

But there is certainly an element of keeping them for the honey even if i do not consume it my self, really do not like the stuff!

Was just trying to point to the fact there are a lot of methods we use that the bees can surely not be happy with. So we invoke a procedure on them thinking we know best. Maybe if we had never got involved then they would have been much happier

 

[Hivemaker.]

Have you used it on entire colonies? what happened?

They are all sound asleep in around twelve seconds, no fanning at all, nor when they come round a few minutes later.

 

[MuswellMetro]

Bring both hives of bees down here, i will re queen them for you.

I have a picture in my mind of a traffic jam on the M5 with lots of car filled with buzing boxes of angry Bees as everyone of the forum rushes to get they hives requeened

quote from this link http://www.first-nature.com/fungi/calvatia-gigantea.php, it is worth a try if you can find a giant puff ball

Smouldering lumps of this and other kinds of fungi were also used by beekeepers when they needed to tend their hives. The smoke from a smouldering Giant Puffball was used to calm the bees, thus greatly reducing the chances of a beekeeper being stung.