colony loss

[jallen]

hi all lost one of my colonys well just about last week lots of bees had a quick look to day only a hand full left not fun plenty of stores left just no bees

 

[Bad Boy Bee]

Sorry for your loss but s**t happens. If you have good records or even a good memory look at every aspect of how you arrived at this point and cross off the good and never forgot the bad, next year you will hopefully have less problems.

 

[jallen]

thanks my other two colonys are strong so fingers crossed

 

[itma]

Can I ask about the varroa situation with the missing colony?

- how long ago did you last have an inspection board in? And then how many dead mites falling in how many days?
- and what varroa treatment did they have this year?

Any indication of any other health issues? Were they taking down syrup?

Does it make any sense to have the survivors checked for disease?



Sorry about the loss, but the only thing now is to see what can be learned by all of us.

 

[Midland Beek]

... might well have been queenless.

 

[Skyhook]

Can I ask about the varroa situation with the missing colony?

- how long ago did you last have an inspection board in? And then how many dead mites falling in how many days?
- and what varroa treatment did they have this year?

Any indication of any other health issues? Were they taking down syrup?

Does it make any sense to have the survivors checked for disease?



Sorry about the loss, but the only thing now is to see what can be learned by all of us.

... might well have been queenless.

From healthy to gone in a week seems very fast for varroa problems or queenlessness- wouldn't you expect more of a tailing off?

Any indication of any other health issues? Were they taking down syrup?

Does it make any sense to have the survivors checked for disease?

Are there any bees at all left that you could send for analysis? Does anyone else wonder if it could be N. ceranae?

 

[jallen]

That were inspected by the bee inspector vorroia levels was low that had bean treated with thormol and queen right

 

[Finman]

.
Varroa does that kind of tricks. They go to the last brood which ought to bee wintering bees. Then they are violed. New bees will be dead and when summer bees die, the hive is empty.

Quick contamination happens if the colony robs a weak colony, which is full of varroa. It collapses in one month.

I do not know, how tracheal mite cases suits to this.

 

[Finman]

that had bean treated with thormol

do you mean thymol?

 

[Beezer]

From healthy to gone in a week seems very fast for varroa problems or queenlessness- wouldn't you expect more of a tailing off?

Any indication of any other health issues? Were they taking down syrup?

Does it make any sense to have the survivors checked for disease?

Are there any bees at all left that you could send for analysis? Does anyone else wonder if it could be N. ceranae?

JAllen
"last week lots of bees had a quick look to day only a hand full left not fun plenty of stores left just no bees"

Lost mine exactly the same way last week.

Hivemaker asked if they had been tested for Nosema Ceranae. -
I have returned from NHS with a microscope and am now going to get some samples and investigate.

They went from looking fine to virtually nothing in a week and had taken down thymol syrup no problem and thymol treatment on for a couple of weeks or so. Other hives fine, this one was our strongest.

 

[BBG]

.
Varroa does that kind of tricks. They go to the last brood which ought to bee wintering bees. Then they are violed. New bees will be dead and when summer bees die, the hive is empty.

Quick contamination happens if the colony robs a weak colony, which is full of varroa. It collapses in one month.

I do not know, how tracheal mite cases suits to this.

I was at the Honey Show and listened to someone telling the man from FERA he had lost his strongest colony very quickly.

The man from FERA said he had numerous beekeepers saying the same thing to him over the past few years - that their strongest colonies had disappeared in a week or so.

FERA reckoned it was late with the varroa treatment that could have been the problem. He also said that it is the biggest and strongest colonies we should worry about because they have a much bigger problem with varroa simply because they are high in numbers - makes sense I think

FERA man was pretty scathing when this beek said he used home-made thymol recipe. He said it needed doing carefully and people should use branded as they had spent an awful lot of money researching the stuff. He sent the beek away with a flea in is ear!!

 

[oliver90owner]

people should use branded as they had spent an awful lot of money researching the stuff.

That's really tough. More like spent lots on advertising.

Why should we all spend our hard earned dosh on things from 'proprietry' suppliers when it is likely no better than the cheaper 'generic' version that has been around for years?

Autumn feeding comes to mind ('apifeed' instead of sugar syrup), as well as these fancy prepared mite killers (for those that are unable to dissolve oxalic acid in water).

Quadrupling the cost of varroa treatment for no extra return, apart from convenience (and good for lining a pocket that is not your's) seems to me to be another stupid way of losing money.

Hivemaker's 'brand of preparation' would be good enough for me for thymol treatment (I use a slightly different approach), so why pay out excessively for a product which may not actually advise the user on the effficacy under UK conditions?

And, of course, there are a lot of branded 'snake oils' out there, too. No, branding does not necessarily make anything better than any other.

RAB

 

[Hivemaker.]

Had a thread about this before i seem to remember,waste of time really, as there will always be those who are too stupid to mix oxalic ect themselves. Buying everything they eat neatly pre packed by some supermarket,as anything other than this is no good in their eyes,not real.

 

[MuswellMetro]

FERA man was pretty scathing when this beek said he used home-made thymol recipe. He said it needed doing carefully and people should use branded as they had spent an awful lot of money researching the stuff. He sent the beek away with a flea in is ear!!

well that is the FERA line, if it is not approved dont use it, . i know Alan Byham the SE Regional Bee inspector official line is just the same,

Did the Fera man have a Hat on , is so that was Alan

 

[oliver90owner]

well that is the FERA line,

Yep, Fera, or their antecedents were all against oxalic acid treatment 10 years ago and less.

Perhaps this person needed to be questioned as to whether they had a vested interest in any of the proprietry brand names? You may never know, unless you ask.

Could be several other reasons for the 'flea in the ear'. Even a 'rediculous' home-made recipe could have been the reason for it. After all, there are rediculous vain attempts at making 3.2% oxalic acid solution in sugar syrup posted on the forum, too!

RAB

 

[BBG]

well that is the FERA line, if it is not approved dont use it, . i know Alan Byham the SE Regional Bee inspector official line is just the same,

Did the Fera man have a Hat on , is so that was Alan

He had a hat on-that's him - bit obnoxious anyway isn't he.

He was almost incandescent last year when I told him that FERA/DEFRA et all were hopeless in controlling what should be controlled and take years to respond to an emergency.

 

[BBG]

people should use branded as they had spent an awful lot of money researching the stuff.

That's really tough. More like spent lots on advertising.

Why should we all spend our hard earned dosh on things from 'proprietry' suppliers when it is likely no better than the cheaper 'generic' version that has been around for years?

Autumn feeding comes to mind ('apifeed' instead of sugar syrup), as well as these fancy prepared mite killers (for those that are unable to dissolve oxalic acid in water).

Quadrupling the cost of varroa treatment for no extra return, apart from convenience (and good for lining a pocket that is not your's) seems to me to be another stupid way of losing money.

Hivemaker's 'brand of preparation' would be good enough for me for thymol treatment (I use a slightly different approach), so why pay out excessively for a product which may not actually advise the user on the effficacy under UK conditions?

And, of course, there are a lot of branded 'snake oils' out there, too. No, branding does not necessarily make anything better than any other.

RAB

Wouldn't agree with that in prescription drugs as the active ingredient is the same but excipients not and these can cause side-effects making you feel worse!

However, in the case of thymol I agree with you not only because Hivemaker has shown its efficacy but because of my own results and more recently in a lecture by 'Eric' from Sweden, he uses his own mix too.

Some people however, choose to purchase in prepared substance for immediate use and if that means they are not inflicting suffering on the bees - good on them - it has nothing to do with being stupid.

Ambrosia, my preferred option to mixing interminable gallons of sugar and better for the bees.

Oxalic acid - requires a bit more than dissolving in water (and is a revolting thing to pour on bees )all this must be done accurately.

One teaspoon of oxalic acid granules in a 3/4 bucket of cold water soon strips the algae from the yacht hull after brushing on lightly - god help the bees.

 

[itma]

people should use branded as they had spent an awful lot of money researching the stuff.

That's really tough. More like spent lots on advertising.

Why should we all spend our hard earned dosh on things from 'proprietry' suppliers when it is likely no better than the cheaper 'generic' version that has been around for years?
...

I note what you are saying, BUT ...
- for "product approval" don't they have to spend quite heavily on monitored trials to objectively prove both effectiveness and safety?

People paying to legitimise a simple preparation (like oxalic syrup for trickling) are to be thanked for getting the treatment accepted. And sure, those costs need to be recovered, and everyone in business is wanting to make a margin. And products need some form of public promotion to sell well enough to recover their development and approval costs. So a branded, officially tested product is inevitably going to be more expensive than a DIY version. Even for a simple preparation like Oxalic. (However, I suspect that there's much more money to be made selling equally simple products like human mouthwash. or car windscreen cleaner, than Oxalic to beekeepers.)
I'm delighted that an Italian company has had simple Oxalic treatment officially validated.

But for the potentially more technical matter of sustained, stable and controlled levels of thymol evaporation, I would expect there to be a performance difference between using a gel preparation like Apiguard and florist's Oasis.
But that performance difference need not be critical, unless the problem is at a critical level.
With low levels of varroa, light control can be sufficient. That's what IPM is about, isn't it? But equally, with a serious problem, many would prefer not to take chances.
The "approved" product has been tested for both safety and efficacy, and, admittedly for a price, offers a low-risk option.
I don't dispute that the situation is different where no such product has been even offered for approval, or where a 'snake oil' unapproved product is concerned.

But it can be an individual choice - I don't see that anyone should say "if you do anything differently to me, you are doing it wrong". Different people will have differing skills, time, money, confidence or aversion to risks, and so on.
There's a demand for ready-made sandwiches and yet some people would prefer to go hungry if they hadn't made for themselves. Neither should get us worked up.




I had hoped for specific answers to the questions of
- when was mite drop last measured?
- what number was recorded?
- what specific treatments had been used (and when), this year?

At this point, I don't think that the reply -
"That were inspected by the bee inspector vorroia levels was low that had bean treated with thormol and queen right "
indicates a beekeeper fully on top of the situation in his hives.
It doesn't even confirm the use of a mesh floor ...
Or whether commercial or homebrewed treatment was used.


As an (admittedly over) enthusiastic newb, I'm keen to know what can be learned from a situation like this.
Colonies shouldn't be collapsing at this time of the year. Sh*t does happen, but should we just shrug and move on?
Maybe the mild weather is helpful to disease?
Is it worth trying to get the survivors tested for disease?
What specific tests would experienced beekeepers be doing NOW on other hives on the same site?

 

[Finman]

FERA reckoned it was late with the varroa treatment that could have been the problem. He also said that it is the biggest and strongest colonies we should worry about because they have a much bigger problem with varroa simply because they are high in numbers - makes sense I think
s ear!!

yes exactly. i lost last Autumn my 4 strongest colonies. the system goes so that they were huge hives
. They had much mites too. In those hives there was a brood brake in late summer.
When a new queen started to lay, mites rushed to winter brood. A huge mite load destroyed hives and I knew nothing at once.

 

[BBG]

yes exactly. i lost last Autumn my 4 strongest colonies. the system goes so that they were huge hives
. They had much mites too. In those hives there was a brood brake in late summer.
When a new queen started to lay, mites rushed to winter brood. A huge mite load destroyed hives and I knew nothing at once.

This is exactly what happened to me.

I have just come back from inspecting the only two hives in the apiary

(only 2 because 1 already there was double brood and v strong and the other, also v strong and under a new Queen past two months, was brought in from quarantine)

Other hives moved to permanent quarters some time ago.

Two samples of 40-ish were taken and the ex-quarantine bees were active in the jar and v active in the hive.

Lost colony: The Queen was at centre with some brood on opposite frames. She had about fifty or so of her bees with her - v sad sight.

There were numerous robbers - I closed the hive up - wish I'd done it last time

We have two photographs but are having difficulty in uploading so will try again in a while.

I would say one jam jar has two dollops of of orangey yellow on the inside which appeared when the bees had been put in a patch of 2cm by 1cm for one.

Bees are in freezer - will dissect and pulp later.

We will get pics down the microscope if possible too.