Changing hive type - advice for next year

[Andy Duff]

Good question. Beware the 'grass is greener' optimism... is it that the wooden Commercials are unsuitable, or rather that the 14x12's appeal because they are poly?

Dan.

well said

 

[Monsieur Abeille]

if it's just a matter of insulation use dummy boards and roof insulation. We would love to be working with commercials, instead of the undersized national deeps we have or the 14x12's we are moving up to. The bigger the space you are working with, the more options you have.

If it aint broke don't fix it.

Sorry if I have missed the point of this thread.
Put your next colony into a poly hive and compare and contrast between the two.and yes I would love to be working with poly hives, but not just for the sake of it

Very little difference in brood area between a commercial and a 14x12 so its not a backward step. If the OP has decided that they want to move to poly they shouldn't be berated for it. Perfectly valid questions imo.

 

[Alabamaeee]

Some more reasoning behind it...

I've got two cedar hives that came as a package and are nearing the end of their useful life, must be 20 years old.

I know the advantage of commercial size BB's but the 14X12 is almost the same size, but another advantage (for me anyway) is longer lugs on National frames.

So if I add the other advantages of poly, including a small weight advantage (I have some back problems) it seems to be the best choice for me if I need to replace the older hives.

I realise it would have been better to add the info in my original post, however my main question was how to transfer the colonies if I do go down the Poly 14X12 route.

 

[BeeJayBee]

... perhaps you aren't ready for such a radical enterprise.

Why is changing from one type of hive to another 'radical'?

I plan to use poly Langstroths, but a local beekeeper suggested I should start with wooden Nationals, because 'everybody' in the club uses them. They said I could maybe switch to Langstroths after my first year. (They don't like poly either, but that's not the point!)

If this person had been my only source of information then I'd probably think it was the right thing to do.

As it is, I can't see the point of starting off with one type of hive knowing that it isn't what I want and I'd have to change over. It would be expensive too.

I can, though, understand the pressure to 'conform' locally, especially when you're new.

 

[Into the lions den]

I've got two cedar hives that came as a package and are nearing the end of their useful life, must be 20 years old.

20 years old? Cedar? gee, unless you have been playing football with them they should see YOU out. Apart from some Lang deeps I bought a couple of seasons back to address a shortage I will not have a wooden box under 20 years old, and many are 50 and 60 years old, a handful even older being second hand when my father bought them in the 1950s. Correctly cared for a cedar box is a box for life. (as is good red wood pine)

 

[itma]

...
I can, though, understand the pressure to 'conform' locally, especially when you're new.

I'm not sure that "pressure" would be wholly accurate.

Particularly when starting, particularly when you may need help, or spare bits of kit THIS weekend, etc ... there are advantages in not striking out on your own and being different. Which not every newb will understand.
As long as you are properly aware of the extent to which you may need to be self-sufficient, and can explain that to your fellow members, their concern will be reduced. (Even if they have 'seen it all before'! )

 

[Nic Rhodes]

Abelo are now listing a poly commercial nucleus on ebay, looks similar to their other nucs but may help.....full hive next?

 

[BBG]

Why is changing from one type of hive to another 'radical'?

I plan to use poly Langstroths, but a local beekeeper suggested I should start with wooden Nationals, because 'everybody' in the club uses them. They said I could maybe switch to Langstroths after my first year. (They don't like poly either, but that's not the point!)

If this person had been my only source of information then I'd probably think it was the right thing to do.

As it is, I can't see the point of starting off with one type of hive knowing that it isn't what I want and I'd have to change over. It would be expensive too.

I can, though, understand the pressure to 'conform' locally, especially when you're new.

And then they come out with , "Look I'm updating my hives. Why don't you buy them? I'll let you have them cheap."

BUT, they don't say they're buying polystyrene, the stuff they advised you not to buy.

Itma

"I'm not sure that "pressure" would be wholly accurate."

It is, wholly accurate, I've seen it in operation almost sublimely and overtly as newbies fret about what they're going to do.

Then comes the, "Look. I'm selling my old stuff cheaply......."

Anything other than National is seen as a threat and of course a lost revenue stream for cast-off rubbish.

 

[Nic Rhodes]

available in Smith also

I suspect that much like some of us use BS deep and 14 x 12 in standard and Jumbo Langstroth nucs from Paradise (moder n beekeeping supplies) then these will be similar. None the worse for that.

 

[BeeJayBee]

I'm not sure that "pressure" would be wholly accurate.

Particularly when starting, particularly when you may need help, or spare bits of kit THIS weekend, etc ... there are advantages in not striking out on your own and being different. Which not every newb will understand.

As long as you are properly aware of the extent to which you may need to be self-sufficient, and can explain that to your fellow members, their concern will be reduced. (Even if they have 'seen it all before'! )

But when somebody who's starting out is told something similar to what you've just said then it does put them under pressure to comply (do as they're told) ... or face the consequences of their ignorance, and it further suggests that they may have to face their problems on their own, which isn't very nice.

.... I've seen it in operation almost sublimely and overtly as newbies fret about what they're going to do.

Especially if the newcomer hasn't taken advantage of the vast resource of the internet and maybe joining forums, even if it's only to lurk and read.

I must add a rider to my first comment (#24) though, because this week I've spoken to other people in the BKA I'm planning to join and, although I've heard the slightly raised eyebrows over the phone, none have dismissed the idea of using either polystyrene or Langstroth as being either unacceptable or unsuitable, which is something of a relief.

I've also spoken to the local Bee Inspector, who was amazingly helpful and reminded me that there's information on BeeBase about disinfecting and cleaning poly hives.

All this might mean that, this time next year, I won't find myself asking how to switch hive types, and being asked to explain why!

 

[Poly Hive]

Changing over is easy, make a piece of ply and cut it to fit the larger of the brood boxes, then cut a hole in it to suit the smaller brood box which has the bees in it.

Put new box on top and when the queen is up there pop in an excluder over the smaller box and double check in three days or so that she is in fact in the box you want her to be in.

Switch them over after a couple of weeks and the last of the brood in the old brood box will hatch out in a further 10 days or so and job done.

Poly Langstroth is an excellent hive choice.

PH

 

[oliver90owner]

Changing over is easy,

As PH says, it's easy.

It is also much cheaper if you choose the right format first time round.... Not always easy for the new beek, I know, but worth a 'few quid investment' in time I reckon, to at least investigate the options.

I did (up to a point, as hives became available with bees in Nationals and WBCs). I knew I had two or three main choices and conversion to 14 x 12 seemed to be my most satisfactory choice at the time. I have not regretted it, but I do recognise it was a compromise as no single hive format is the 'ideal' choice.

When I started I looked at Langstroth, Commercial and National sized frames, chose to stick with the National width of frame, as timber was my choice anyway (I could make my own boxes cheaply). Poly was not really on the agenda at that time, but is now a serious contender in more than only Langstroth format.

Big sheet of paper time. List your wants, expectations, future choices and all other factors, as pros and cons over the next couple of months and then decide by removing the formats that don't come up to scratch for your particular situation. Discuss any issues arising, with enough beekeepers to get a fair cross-section of views, and then check that you have not made any serious omissions with your procedure.

Unfortunately by then most of the winter bargains will be gone, but as I see it now, the choice is still between those three frame sizes, between timber and poly, and actual brood box depth.. Choosing tyhe right frame width is the most important, I would suggest, as most other bits can follow on later.

RAB

 

[itma]

But when somebody who's starting out is told something similar to what you've just said then it does put them under pressure to comply (do as they're told) ... or face the consequences of their ignorance, and it further suggests that they may have to face their problems on their own, which isn't very nice.

Especially if the newcomer hasn't taken advantage of the vast resource of the internet and maybe joining forums, even if it's only to lurk and read.

...

I think you are likely misconstruing advice intended to be friendly and helpful.

If you were to be (in hardware terms) "on your own" with one route, whereas with another there would be plenty of people locally from whom you could quickly borrow any item you didn't have and discovered that you needed urgently -- would it be more helpful to warn you, or to encourage you to develop your individuality?

 

[Alabamaeee]

Changing over is easy, make a piece of ply and cut it to fit the larger of the brood boxes, then cut a hole in it to suit the smaller brood box which has the bees in it.

Put new box on top and when the queen is up there pop in an excluder over the smaller box and double check in three days or so that she is in fact in the box you want her to be in.

Switch them over after a couple of weeks and the last of the brood in the old brood box will hatch out in a further 10 days or so and job done.

Poly Langstroth is an excellent hive choice.

PH

OK it's been a while since I first thought about this, but I'm thinking of poly 14x12 now and as they are the same outside dimension it should be easy to do Poly's suggestion without the need for a wooden reducer.

 

[adrian wilford]

and i would suggest feed with sugar syrup

 

[itma]

OK it's been a while since I first thought about this, but I'm thinking of poly 14x12 now and as they are the same outside dimension it should be easy to do Poly's suggestion without the need for a wooden reducer.

So when do you intend putting the new home on top?

 

[Alabamaeee]

I had hoped to change to poly while doing A/S in summer but if I'm correct it will be difficult as the commercial frame are longer than the 14x12 frames. I'm thinking it's impossible to transfer HRH to a new home on her commercial frame.

But someone may have a cunning plan

Other than that I may have to do it soon before OSR appears.

Haven't bought them yet so part of the plan was to go to a show and buy a bit cheaper!

 

[drstitson]

alabamabee - you don't NEED to transfer HM with a frame - think about it. it doesn't happen in natural swarming. Just helps to keep the "swarm" at home. A QE under the box should do the same job.

 

[Poly Hive]

I suggest that all of you thinking of poly in various guises do some checking.

My understanding is that it exists in the following formats.

Smith

National

Langstroth.

If anyone knows of others please let us know.

PH

 

[Hivemaker.]

If anyone knows of others please let us know.
PH

Dadant.