Cast or queenless?

[Fritillary]

I caught a swarm 10 days ago and hived it, and gave it comb and food. Today I looked in and saw there are plenty of bees but no eggs or brood.

Is there any way to know, without giving them eggs from elsewhere, whether this is a cast swarm with a virgin in there, or a prime swarm whose queen I did in while catching them? (Apart from finding a queen of course! I wouldn't trust myself to be sure of seeing or not seeing a virgin in there.) My other colony has not much in the way of eggs which is why I'm not keen to steal any from them, tho' I suspect introducing eggs is probably the only way to be sure - ?

- It wasn't as big as a prime swarm I caught earlier in the year, but was more small football- than tennis ball-sized. The occasional bee with pollen going in; workers visiting the Himalayan balsam and looking purposeful...

 

[peteinwilts]

pollen going in is a good sign. give them a few days, and am sure you will see brood.

 

[ratcatcher]

I fail to differ, bees collect pollen whether Q- or Q+ it's what bees do

 

[Erichalfbee]

I have seen a queen less colony pack a brood box with pollen

 

[La Folie]

My swarm, which clearly had a virgin, took nearly 3 weeks before I saw eggs. Nice weather coming up so give it a little more time.

 

[enrico]

I too would give them more time. But even a frame with a few eggs would be helpful to make a decision.

 

[oliver90owner]

Clearly a cast, if you actually got the queen and didn't squash her at hiving.

''I caught'' should give it away. Tell us whether the stray bees entered the hive of their own accord, how long you gave them to collect together before removing them to your apiary, or wherever, and anything else which may give us a clue as to the chance of the queen being present. It should have been obvious to you, as swarm collecting protocol is usually well described in all good beekeeping books.

The weather hasn't been good for queen nuptials this last three weeks, so she may have mated in the last few days, may not - depends on your local weather.

 

[beeno]

Hi Fritillary,
A bit early to call this time of the year. Give them another week. If they are working with purpose it may be on. Good Luck.

 

[Fritillary]

Hello and many thanks for all your replies... Only the 3rd swarm I've ever seen/caught or collected so sorry if I sound a bit dim. Not a whole lot smaller than the first this year, but that one produced eggs within a couple of days, which is mostly what made me worry about these.

This one was up 12' in ivy, near my hives but not far from a feral colony (the source of the first swarm) and it wasn't exactly a textbook collection! Glad no-one was watching - except that they could have held the cardboard box! I had 3 goes at shaking them into the box, since after the first 1 and 2, some bees were returning, so that I thought I must not have got the queen. After that, upturned the box on a sheet below where the swarm had been and next to my plantpot 'temporary collection hive' (!) with bars at the top (as I have horizontal top bar hives) until late afternoon. There was some fanning and all bees joined those in the box, tho as they didn't process into the pot - which would have been nice! - I poured them in, as a 7 degree night was forecast. Moved this then (with insulation) a few yards away somewhere safe from local badger patrols, and the next day poured the bees into a nuc sized space in a top bar hive. A few bees hovering around back at the swarm site, but only about a dozen. So the swarm was pretty cohesive throughout and I think the first bit, catching them in the cardboard box, would have been the point where I was most likely to have damaged the queen. I don't know up till what point bees might try and return to their original home if their queen perished, or whether they'd just stay put even if this happened.

If all this makes it sound likely they are a cast, I may nonetheless have damaged their queen/virgin, but at least I know it's worth waiting a little while longer before really having to do something about them. All a bit late in the year - but at least today was fine weather again. (If I have to combine them, will still need to do the eggs test at some point I guess.)

 

[Fritillary]

Hello again, just an update, from "Baffled Beekeeper" I think I should be calling myself.. Well it was a cast swarm, but their fortunes haven't been so good...

There were couple of days of extra-lively behaviour and fanning by the entrance, which made me hopeful - but no brood to be seen for some time.

They're at one end of a 4' top bar, separated with dividers from another colony at the other end. That had become queenless, and I introduced and combined with them a queen with a couple of combs of brood. That worked fine, and I was then going to combine them asap with the 'swarm'. I opened it up though to put in an eggs test - and found what looked like a nice array of eggs! (although with a lot of other scattered cells with more than one egg in them). I hoped though: a newly laying young queen. But put the eggs test in anyway. A few days later it was clear that all the eggs were unfertilised (every one with drone capping). And queen cells were being made from the worker eggs I'd introduced. (But not very convincingly?) No newer eggs had been laid, and couldn't see a queen, even in a small space. So - they had a drone laying queen which they decided to dispose of once the worker eggs arrived? I don't feel optimistic for them! They've stores and I've fed them. I have no nice combs of brood "spare" to give them from anywhere else. I can't think a newly emerging queen now will make good for them, though there've been a few mature drones around. And of course their nos. are dwindling. Neither is there any point, is there, in thinking of combining them now with their neighbours? They either will have a queen in there of some sort, or they will shortly die out (of old age) - ?

 

[Davelin]

Sounds more like laying workers from what you describe.

Very late in the year to do much with them, I fear they are doomed.
If you get a nice day I would throw them in the hedge and close up their hive.

No point trying to introduce a queen or combine if they have laying workers.

Some of them will beg they way into another hive, but none of them will probably make it through winter by the sound of it.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

'nice array of eggs' suggests to me a DLQ, but regardless, agree with Davelin shaking out would be the better option queen present or not, had to do three this year in different circumstances and they've all quickly begged their way into another hive.

 

[Erichalfbee]

they've all quickly begged their way into another hive.

How do you know?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

we watched them. Dumped them all in the hedge, five minutes later loads of bees around the original hive site then clustering around a neighbouring hive and queueing up to be inspected by the guards not long after all back to normal and little sign of casualties. But maybe that's the beauty of having non-agressive bees

 

[Erichalfbee]

we watched them. Dumped them all in the hedge, five minutes later loads of bees around the original hive site then clustering around a neighbouring hive and queueing up to be inspected by the guards not long after all back to normal and little sign of casualties.

 

[MuswellMetro]

well i had a nuc that was a swarm from a joint pairy and I shook it out into a bush 20ft from the apairy as it had DLW , left the old empty nuc cleaned with new foundation sealed away from it original location

after 3 hours they were still in the bush, but i left them, next morning a beginner came to feed her bees and found about 25% the bees still in the bush and threw them into my old nucon MY new clean foundation

i turn up later in the day to DEJA VUE, my Nuc on the old stand full of bees,

i now had no idea if this is a swarm caught by the beginner or what, so I left them, fortunatley they eventual absconded later in the week but leaving the foundation ruined and chewed but not drawn

 

[Fritillary]

Thanks for the recommendation about turning them out... Confess though, that seeing - after Sunday's 2 degree morning - full-on flying and pollen gathering and (outside other hives) orientating flights today.... I just can't bring myself to do it! Will have another look inside at the weekend. (Yes I buy the occasional lottery ticket too!) They're not causing a problem in the space they're in, and if all's lost with them, won't the original workers be too old by now to survive any longer in another colony?