Can I over winter on a double brood box?

[tkwinston4]

Reason for the question is because I picked up a wild colony in January and they have been on their wild comb and a brood box all summer because I could not find the darn queen. Anyway they were happy enough and I didn't want any honey from them so I left them too it.

Finally at the end of my varroa treatment I have found the queen but there are still masses and masses of bees so I put her in the old brood box and gave them another brood box on top just to house the overflowing bees.

So I currently have:

Roof
2 x supers with the old wild comb (still some brood to hatch out and stores)
Crown board
Queen excluder
New Brood box
Old Brood box
Floor

Bear in mind this is a Smith hive so not big on space but do people think I am giving them too much space for the winter? I will be removing the old comb and the two supers once its all cleaned out.

Also am I asking for trouble in the Spring too?

I am sure I have missed out some vital information but right now I cant think what it is!!!

Thanks in advance.

 

[Monsieur Abeille]

Shouldn't the crown board be on top of the supers, otherwise I'd have thought you are asking for supercedure cells and possible rogbbing through top vents, otherwise many overwinter on double brood.

 

[itma]

... they have been on their wild comb and a brood box all summer ... I have found the queen but there are still masses and masses of bees so I put her in the old brood box and gave them another brood box on top just to house the overflowing bees.

So I currently have:

Roof
2 x supers with the old wild comb (still some brood to hatch out and stores)
Crown board
Queen excluder
New Brood box
Old Brood box
Floor

... do people think I am giving them too much space for the winter? I will be removing the old comb and the two supers once its all cleaned out.
...

From my very limited experience, it seems strange to split the brood with some going in the 'attic'. Sure that seems to be normal to get comb cleaned out, but brood above a crownboard? ??
I gather that the bees prefer to move up to the top of their space, so I'd have expected the new brood box to be on top of the stack, so that they can all move upwards into it (maybe with a qx below it so you keep her where you want her?), and to have the emptiest boxes at the bottom of the stack, so that they get emptied quickly and can be removed whenever possible.

I don't think there ought to be a problem with "too much space" below the colony - I've read here of deliberately putting a completely empty super under the BB to reduce draughts from the (open) omf.
I don't see why you shouldn't do that under double brood boxes ...

My worry would be whether or not they'd move all their stores upstairs in the time available, so that they had enough winter fuel within reach.
Have they got drawn comb in the 'new' box, or do they have building work to do as well before they can move in properly?

 

[DanBee]

Seems fine to me from what you outline, and is how we winter any but the smallest colonies... and that's in Commercial boxes which are a good bit bigger than Smiths. The NBU run double-brood Smiths up in Yorkshire and have some lovely colonies. Just keep the queen excluder out of the picture until spring so the cluster can roam over both brood boxes and the stores therein.

I assume you only have sealed brood up in the super? Eggs or young larvae might be asking for trouble - destroy any queen cells resulting after five days and leave the remaining brood to emerge. Once the brood's emerged I'd be more definite and get a clearer board under the supers and get them away.

ITMA - have a read up on double brood box management as you seem to have missed the point that the 2nd brood box is additional, not a replacement for the one they currently have. The brood in super has gone upstairs purposefully to get it emptied and is a different issue.

 

[Hebeegeebee]

I winter some colonies on double brood.
No problem at all.
The rest generally have a super put under in October which I remove in the Spring.

NO queen excluder.

 

[tkwinston4]

Seems fine to me from what you outline, and is how we winter any but the smallest colonies... and that's in Commercial boxes which are a good bit bigger than Smiths. The NBU run double-brood Smiths up in Yorkshire and have some lovely colonies. Just keep the queen excluder out of the picture until spring so the cluster can roam over both brood boxes and the stores therein.

I assume you only have sealed brood up in the super? Eggs or young larvae might be asking for trouble - destroy any queen cells resulting after five days and leave the remaining brood to emerge. Once the brood's emerged I'd be more definite and get a clearer board under the supers and get them away.

ITMA - have a read up on double brood box management as you seem to have missed the point that the 2nd brood box is additional, not a replacement for the one they currently have. The brood in super has gone upstairs purposefully to get it emptied and is a different issue.

Hi Danbee, thanks for the clear reply and for putting my mind at rest. I have to say that they have been really lovely bees, whether its the bees or the double brood set up I couldn't say but they are so calm and prolific. The extra space clearly agrees with them and after seeing your comments I think I will keep them on the double brood next year.

As you also said its just sealed brood to emerge in the wild comb and there isn't that much. I put the QE on to stop HM going up into the wild comb again where I wouldn't be able to find her. Was that not a good thing to do then?

I had a peak 24 hours after the change around and already most of the bees had taken the stores downstairs to the double brood boxes with just nurse bees up top looking after the remaining brood. I was concerned they may get chilled being so far away from the main nest but with a warm week expected fingers crossed they will be ok.

I really want to get them off the wild comb asap and get rid of it so that I can quickly stick a miller feeder on to see if they want any more stores. They are pretty hefty already but with some new drawn comb to fill in the second brood box they may make use of some extra syrup.

Thanks for the advice x

 

[sugarbush]

I really want to get them off the wild comb asap and get rid of it so that I can quickly stick a miller feeder on to see if they want any more stores. They are pretty hefty already but with some new drawn comb to fill in the second brood box they may make use of some extra syrup.

Thanks for the advice x

Put the wild comb on the bottom, come spring they will be in the top and your wild comb will all be empty and ready to remove.

In the US almost everybody winters in double or triple brood boxes. It gives the bees room to expand in the spring when they are ready to.

Also a queen excluder is the least used piece of commercially produced equipment here. I threw mine out years ago, bees are much more productive without them.

 

[itma]

...
ITMA - have a read up on double brood box management as you seem to have missed the point that the 2nd brood box is additional, not a replacement for the one they currently have. The brood in super has gone upstairs purposefully to get it emptied and is a different issue.

Thanks, I wasn't being clear.
I'd have thought (and this is where I'd appreciate input on the error of my ways!) that the best means of emptying the supers of brood (and stores) without fuss would be to put them on the bottom of the stack - which I note is what Sugarbush is also suggesting. I have already learned the trick of putting comb above a crown board to get it cleaned out - it just seemed awkward to split the brood like this, when putting it underneath should clear it, without vertically splitting the brood to anything like the same extent.

And then with the queen found and in the (double) brood box, putting the QX between the wild comb filled low supers and the double brood box above would simplify/speed the later process of actual removal of those supers - no need to go queen hunting before removing them because she couldn't be hiding in that lot of wild comb. With falling temperatures, the consideration is to have the colony open for the least possible time. *IF* those supers ('subs'?) are to be removed before winter, it seemed as though the QX might be helpful until they were removed. (secondary consideration - does it actually make sense to worry about removing those boxes before winter?)
I wasn't suggesting putting the QX between the double bbs, or leaving it in place over winter.
Just using the QX to keep tabs on Q temporarily, to save having to find her again when there's wild comb within her (if unrestricted) quad-brood-box ambit.
Finding Q in wild comb is not guaranteed. For me at least!

 

[DanBee]

I'd have thought (and this is where I'd appreciate input on the error of my ways!) that the best means of emptying the supers of brood (and stores) without fuss would be to put them on the bottom of the stack

Brood isolated above the cluster will be warmed from below. I don't practice the placing of supers below the brood for winter - although I do not doubt that it works, and in this instance would clear it of honey - since double brood makes this unnecessary. Sufficient stores around the brood nest that supers do not come into the wintering equation. Clear them, extract them, store them

I put the QE on to stop HM going up into the wild comb again where I wouldn't be able to find her. Was that not a good thing to do then?

Correct use of queen excluder if you want to get the wild comb off the colony before winter, and as you say the remaining brood will still be warmed from below. The urge now is to take stores down into the brood nest, not to store ever upwards. Wait for the brood to emerge and then get a clearer board under it

 

[tkwinston4]

Thanks for putting my mind at rest DanBee