Beginners question for the coming Spring

[thedozzer]

Have finished reading Ted Hooper again, and one of the things he goes into in detail for the start of the season is frame manipulations, moving the larger, more central frames of brood to the out side of the brood ball to help encourage spreading the brood.
So would like to know who does this and is it worth the effort, as i did think that this was to help keep more of the brood box at the 37c for brood rearing? and would it be so important in a poly hive?

Also as we would like to do a split and have provisionally ordered a new queen from GM, we are on 12x14 (yes know some don't like) would one good frame of the capped brood and 2 of stores be Ok for the new queen? as there will be more new bees per frame on a 12x14 than a standard. we have a nuc ready for the split.

PS Have been trying to join local Association but have have had no response from 3 emails and no reply from phone messages!!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Frame manipulation can be beneficial, but if not done correctly can be disastrous, you need the experience to be able to read the frames - and the bees and to be honest, no textbook do it by numbers will cover every (or any, for that matter) situation, each one depends on the bees.
Most of the time, just making sure they have plenty of room to store, and for the queen to lay is sufficient, the bees will cope without our interference.
As for the split - yes.

 

[Poly Hive]

Brood manipulation coupled with stores bruising is a very effective technique that for some reason is not taught.

As said it can be dangerous in the hands of the inexperienced.... so...

I would suggest you find someone who has considerable experience of it. Preferably a person running more than 20 colonies and over more than a few years so they have a decent amount of experience and get them to demonstrate it to you.

In the right hands, it brings on colonies leaps and bounds and in the wrong ones it kills the colony.

PH

 

[thedozzer]

Frame manipulation can be beneficial, but if not done correctly can be disastrous, you need the experience to be able to read the frames - and the bees
As for the split - yes.

Brood manipulation coupled with stores bruising is a very effective technique that for some reason is not taught.

As said it can be dangerous in the hands of the inexperienced....
In the right hands, it brings on colonies leaps and bounds and in the wrong ones it kills the colony.

PH

Hi JKBM & PH, thank you for the answers, you sort of confirmed what had been bothering me, could we do more harm than good. interesting that you both think it is worth doing if done well, so will leave this particular technique until i have more experience, the girls have survived my worst efforts so far and look to be doing well if today was anything to go by.
if i can get hold of one of the local association will try and join and find a mentor. Eric B has been very helpful but not local.

 

[Poly Hive]

Sadly I'm not that local either only 350 miles or so.

PH

 

[TooBee...]

... frame manipulations, moving the larger, more central frames of brood to the out side of the brood ball ...

Just repeating what I've been told (not done) by a beek that claims to do it;
do not move the central frames to the outer, but do it gradually, such as moving the central two outwards by one frame, and so on over time as each frame is filled up, it was stressed to me that the Brood area should never be split by placing foundation between two brood frames.

Again, I say that I haven't tried this, but moving the two central frames to the outer edges goes directly against the primary principle of what I was told.

I also think that you definitely need a population to be able to cover all the frames from the far right to the far left of the brood area, so I'm not sure if that amount of population would be present in a early in the year hive, maybe (hives/colonies here in Ireland tend to be very weak coming out of winter). Just my two cents worth - I do not speak from experience unlike the other two Posters.

 

[Poly Hive]

I am not recommending this for beginners but it is perfectly possible to insert foundation in the middle of a brood nest and have it drawn and laid up by the next inspection. I do this routinely when the brood nest is up to 8 or more frames.

Whisper it quietly but sometimes I put in 2! WOO!!! not together but "splitting the nest into 3. Sitting here awaiting the proverbial lightning bolt....

Not killed a colony yet doing it. And of course both are drawn and laid up by the next inspection.

PH

 

[Wingy]

I am not recommending this for beginners but it is perfectly possible to insert foundation in the middle of a brood nest and have it drawn and laid up by the next inspection. I do this routinely when the brood nest is up to 8 or more frames.

Whisper it quietly but sometimes I put in 2! WOO!!! not together but "splitting the nest into 3. Sitting here awaiting the proverbial lightning bolt....

Not killed a colony yet doing it. And of course both are drawn and laid up by the next inspection.

PH

Did this last year with a Nuc I got in June (only 1 frame of foundation at a time) but the Nuc was brood & 1/2 Langstroth before winter

 

[Ian123]

I am not recommending this for beginners but it is perfectly possible to insert foundation in the middle of a brood nest and have it drawn and laid up by the next inspection. I do this routinely when the brood nest is up to 8 or more frames.

Whisper it quietly but sometimes I put in 2! WOO!!! not together but "splitting the nest into 3. Sitting here awaiting the proverbial lightning bolt....

Not killed a colony yet doing it. And of course both are drawn and laid up by the next inspection.

PH

PH is spot on it even works well with late Autmn nucs even removing a frame of food to allow a frame of foundation into the brood area with the food easily replaced with an extra bucket of feed at a few quid, the extra bees more than pay this back. Also would add often get better results with foundation as have found if using drawn they often quickly dump syrup into the frame rather than the queen laying it up

 

[mbc]

The limiting factor in the size of the nest in the spring once the queen gets going tends to be the optimal number of bees to keep the nest warm, ipso facto: if you artificially increase the volume to be kept warm you're pushing them outside that optimal range.
Brood spreading is best left until after a good few brood cycles and the colony has passed the crossover point where more young bees are maturing than older bees dying off and so is freely expanding imho.

 

[SDM]

Worth remembering to account for clustering too.
8 frames of bees on a 12°c day, won't be 8frames of bees during a -2°C night and we're a long way from being past frosty nights.

 

[drex]

I routinely "spread the brood" and believe it does encourage the build up. I also equalise colonies. Both do require some experience, but I started off just making minor adjustments and gradually increased the scope with experience. As above it can be disastrous but have never chilled brood yet. Timing is the important factor and ability to read the bees.

 

[Poly Hive]

The process is dictated by brood on frames NOT seams of bees which expand and contract with temperature.

I do wish whoever it is that talks about the strength of colonies in terms of bees would just stop as it is just simply WRONG.

To judge a colonies strength not only involves the number of frames of brood but also the density of the covering of said frame with bees. They are not separate quantities but cumulative.

And it is the density issue that comes with practice after all surely we can all count to 22?

PH

 

[mbc]

Also there's bees and bees, those raised under optimal conditions will be far more beneficial and long lived for the colony than any that have struggled due to a stretched colony in their early life.