Bailey comb change query

[SwiftOtter]

We started a bailey comb change two weeks ago. Previously we were running on brood and a half and the colony was very strong. I wonder if perhaps we should have performed a shook swarm. Anyway I digress, we wanted to change to 14 x 12 and I thought we could manage this change most easily using a bailey comb change. We had no drawn 14 x 12 comb and I had read that you should leave them for a week with no QE, which we did. I checked yesterday and all but one of the combs in the 14 x 12 box had been drawn to some extent, there were eggs and larvae, and also two queen cells containing larvae. I foolishly destroyed these Whig I think was a mistake, and then went on to not find the queen, despite diligent searching. The quantity of bees was quite overwhelming to be honest! What is the recommended course of action under these circumstances? We inserted in the QE (but no extra entrance yet) on the assumption that the the queen was in the 14 x 12 box. Is there a way of doing this if you can't find the queen? Can we shake all the bees into the 14 x 12 box? And of if they are short of space what will happen when we remove the brood and a half, should I get supers on already? It's already a bit of a skyscraper...

 

[Midland Beek]

Well, the queen will be where the eggs are - an egg is only an egg for three days.

Is the order of your hive as follows? Brood - super - queen excluder - 14x12. If it is, and you know that the queen is confined in the 14x12, I would move the 14x12 to the bottom ... of course confining her with the queen excluder on top. Once you have done that you can't ditch either the brood or super if they contain any brood. The brood has to be allowed to develop and emerge before deciding your next move.

If you find that the queen is not in the 14x12, start over again. She has to be confined there by chance, assuming you do not want to catch her and stick her in there.

And what is your end aim? Getting the queen in the 14x12 and getting the 14x12 the bottom of your stack is easily do-able, but what next? Note that some people run brood boxes as supers, but weights can be too heavy. If the idea is to scrap the brood box another super needs to be put on.

 

[oliver90owner]

First of all, were these queen cells supercedure or swarm? Your detail is not clear on this point. Destroying them certainly was a mistake.

I agree with MB apart from I would leave the current brood boxes on the bottom, just as Bailey does. Simple reasons are that any emerging drones above that Q/E will be trapped in the box and they will not move up any stores from below to above the new brood nest.

If you cannot find the queen, you could shake or brush all bees into that new top box as an option which is best avoided, but if needs must....but as you have two colonies, you do have some insurance against making the situation worse (and the queen is/was still laying).

You could isolate the queen to a few frames, as detailed in a similar thread just yesterday.

If you have any worries about a new queen getting mated, pop the old queen in a nuc into a nuc for the time being.

Just need to know whether there were more queen cells being developed or if they were clearly supercedure cells. Interfering with a colony can sometimes change them from supercedure to swarming, so beware.

RAB

 

[SwiftOtter]

The queen is quite young and vigourous, a result of an artificial swarm last year. So I don't think it is supercedure. I was doing the bailey comb change partly to deal with the older comb, partly to smooth the transition to 14 x 12 and to alleviate congestion. The end game was to replace the existing brood and a half with 14 x 12, because we frankly find running brood and half a pain in the proverbial. Assuming that the queen was in the 14x 12 box (yes the arrangement is currently BB, super, QE, 14 x 12) and that we leave the older boxes on the bottom, they will need to stay there for three weeks correct? So more supers will probably be needed, which might entail a small ladder as I have short legs! Hmmm, I really wish I'd done that shook swarm now.

I did see other the thread, my main problem is also that I can't find the queen, I'm not sure how you isolate the queen if you can't find her. Or is that a way of finding her?

There seem (to my inexperienced eyes) to be many more bees than I can accommodate in the 14 x 12, most of the frames in all the boxes had brood in various stages and all the frames were thickly covered in bees. We are planning another look on Friday if we find any queen cells we will leave them alone this time. The problem was they were on the top of the 14 x 12, so moving them out is not an option. If they keep on being made there,I guess we'd need to do an AS but not sure how we do that in the middle of the comb change when we can't find the queen.
Cheers
Chris

 

[drex]

Your impression of bee numbers will decrease with experience. Anyway, it is surprising how many bees will happily be in a box. However, when the bees are covering 80% of frames I will generally add another box (honey or brood) as the bees dictate. Finman is always saying he will usually run 3 brood boxes - never been there myself

 

[SwiftOtter]

Well I've got another 14 x 12 box waiting in the wings maybe I should pop that on too ;-)

 

[SwiftOtter]

Just realised that if the QE has been on for 5 days and I find eggs in the 14 x 12 box I can safely assume she is in there, if not and eggs are down in the brood and a half boxes she must be in there and we really need to find her. So that probably helps to simplify things. But when we do get more queen cells, and need to perform an AS they will be in the 14 x 12 box, so to perform the AS it will need another 14 x 12 box (which I have) but I wonder how straightforward this is while the comb change is continuing. Sorry if this all a bit obvious, I'm probably just a bit thick.