An odd one: VQ + LW

[TryingToLetThemBee]

21 June I took a Q- zero-brood 3-frame nuc and on 26 June put in a QC due to emerge on 30 June.

3 July and she had emerged. WISH I HAD LOOKED AT MORE THAN THE QC.

10 July and LOTS of brood, some just being sealed, in a decent brood pattern on 2 of the 3 frames. Almost all quite large larvae. Very few small larvae and some of those were in multiple cells. A Q was present, who looked very VQ. I cannot be 100% whether the cells were being extended: some of the sealed ones looked very undomed: will know more in a day or so, but of course I am impatient. So 98% it is LW, with the 1% being some sort of tiny instantly-mated superqueen and 1% she just came out and started laying drones. I want the VQ so I swapped her with another, stuck in a drop or two of that essential oil that is meant to mimic brood pheromone and await developments.

My question is, has anyone seen this, where LW emerge within roughly a week of being Q-, in good numbers and with decent brood pattern? Despite getting a cell 5 days later? The original colony is still Q+, btw.

 

[E&MBees]

Slightly different starting circumstances, but I also have had a q- colony become laying workers within about a week or so. Much faster than I expected. The brood that was in with them was not enough to suppress them. Destined to be shaken out once my two new queens are established.

 

[Sutty]

Stuck in a drop or two of that essential oil that is meant to mimic brood pheromone

I'm curious what that is?

 

[Fritillary]

I don't think I've ever had laying workers before, but this year 3 times. And -much faster than I'd have expected. Am always telling myself to be patient but after this year I'm going to revert to being much quicker with the test frame!

 

[Erichalfbee]

I'm curious what that is?

Ocimene?
I dabbed some on the top bars of a queenless colony with low brood and working so far.

 

[Erichalfbee]

https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/threads/what-are-my-options-for-a-laying-worker-colony.47055/Post 12

 

[Swarm]

21 June I took a Q- zero-brood 3-frame nuc and on 26 June put in a QC due to emerge on 30 June.

3 July and she had emerged. WISH I HAD LOOKED AT MORE THAN THE QC.

10 July and LOTS of brood, some just being sealed, in a decent brood pattern on 2 of the 3 frames. Almost all quite large larvae. Very few small larvae and some of those were in multiple cells. A Q was present, who looked very VQ. I cannot be 100% whether the cells were being extended: some of the sealed ones looked very undomed: will know more in a day or so, but of course I am impatient. So 98% it is LW, with the 1% being some sort of tiny instantly-mated superqueen and 1% she just came out and started laying drones. I want the VQ so I swapped her with another, stuck in a drop or two of that essential oil that is meant to mimic brood pheromone and await developments.

My question is, has anyone seen this, where LW emerge within roughly a week of being Q-, in good numbers and with decent brood pattern? Despite getting a cell 5 days later? The original colony is still Q+, btw.

I have one to shake out when I get time this week. Good pattern but drone brood, single eggs in cells, some double. Queen seen last visit.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I don't think I've ever had laying workers before, but this year 3 times. And -much faster than I'd have expected. Am always telling myself to be patient but after this year I'm going to revert to being much quicker with the test frame!

I've had the same this year and last from the same queen. Both times we got laying workers bang on three weeks. Single eggs in vast quantity in the brood and up into two supers...all in a week since the previous check. Squeezed her this year.

 

[Kittih]

Just curious OP and trying to understand your initial post. Are you saying that the queen from the queen cell cannot be the source of all the brood including those about the be capped? Were there multiple eggs in cells or any other indication of laying workers or is it the timings that are making you think laying workers?

If it's the timings then how did you calculate emergence as the 30th June ? Did you know the exact age of the egg/larva used to create the queen cell? I only ask because I had a very similar situation where it looked like the new queen couldn't possibly have emerged, matured mated and laid in the time I calculated but it turned out that the bees had used a newly hatched larva so day 3 or likely just <4 so emergence was 4 days earlier than I had calculated. This was just enough extra time to allow for maturation a quick mating and then egg laying with brood reaching capping age. She ended up being a well mated prolific queen.

My latest new queen has been slower to mate in all this stormy weather and whilst her laying pattern is good there are a number of cells with 2 or 3 eggs in the bottom. I expect her to sort her self out over the next week and given the pattern and the position of the eggs in the cells laying workers isn't high on my list of possibilities.

 

[Apiarist]

The soonest I've had an entire Hive turn Laying Worker is 4 1/2 days (there were no eggs in the hive and only 1 1/2 day old larvae), last inspection was 5 days before!
I seem to recall Ruttner and / or Adams making reference to the M lineage going Laying Worker much sooner than other types of bees, I can definitely confirm that!

 

[Sutty]

I wonder if ocimene would also reduce the chance of swarms absconding once hived?

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

I'm curious what that is?

Ocimene?
I dabbed some on the top bars of a queenless colony with low brood and working so far.

Yes, ocimene. Stinky, sticky 'orrible stuff.

Thanks for the feedback. Wow: something to watch out for. Next Q- anything gets doused in the stuff!!!

I am running an interesting controlled experiment, therefore. LW, VQ and ocimene. They clearly had no incentive to get her out and mated when they were looking after their own sons. Will be interesting to see if the ocimene changes their minds. Anyone care to stick their neck out? I am going to say no (assuming they haven't killed the "disposable" VQ already) and I, will be shaking them out within a month.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

This has turned into the most fascinating experiment. On Sunday 11th July I swapped the VQ I wanted (grafted) in the LW colony with a reserve (swarm cell) VQ in a 3-frame nuc (no messing about, just dropped them both in). On Weds 14th the grafted Q in the non-LW colony was a big fat LQ. The Q in the LW colony was still apparently VQ. But no eggs around and most of the drone brood sealed (I mean beyond the 3 6 15 or whatever it is ratio). Splashed on some more ocimene and put in a frame of mostly-sealed but BIAS from a colony I was weakening to increase the chance of accepting a graft*. Will check back in a couple of weeks. I expect LW and no VQ but of course hope to be wrong. Interesting anyway.

*Headed by the mother of all these LW, who sadly is no longer with us...

 

[thorn]

I don't think I've ever had laying workers before, but this year 3 times. And -much faster than I'd have expected. Am always telling myself to be patient but after this year I'm going to revert to being much quicker with the test frame!

I've had two this year. I believe that the virgin queens failed to make it back from their mating flights, either because of birds or bad weather.

 

[Sutty]

"No eggs around" is very encouraging!
How much ocimene have you used?

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

"No eggs around" is very encouraging!
How much ocimene have you used?

Sorry for the delay. A couple of drops on top bars. Probably COMPLETE overkill. It is very smelly stuff even to us. I am guessing 100:1 dilution with isopropyl alcohol is more like it.

Just to update and sign off on this thread: this colony has a lot of drones around (not great: LW genes of course...) but is LQ and recovering. An interesting and successful experiment.

 

[Sutty]

Sorry for the delay. A couple of drops on top bars. Probably COMPLETE overkill. It is very smelly stuff even to us. I am guessing 100:1 dilution with isopropyl alcohol is more like it.

Just to update and sign off on this thread: this colony has a lot of drones around (not great: LW genes of course...) but is LQ and recovering. An interesting and successful experiment.

*Very* interesting!
Now we need someone else with a LW colony to repeat it. I've bought some ocimene to have in my arsenal.