Aggressive bees

[deb]

In the past week - 10 days my lovely placid colony has undergone a total personality change.

They swarmed back in late April and, after what seemed forever, a new queen began to lay - badly! She must have emerged during the cold weather and had a poor mating flight. About a month ago I spotted one queen cell and decided to leave it - suspecting they were planning supersedure.

Since then - no eggs. Then they suddenly became unbearable. My bees are in my large garden, in a residential area. I've had them just over 12 months - but have had no problems at all. Now, suddenly, they're chasing and stinging the neighbours. I'm very worried about it.

I know that queenlessness is actually quite a rare thing - but I was pretty sure that the supersedure hadn't gone quite right and that I had a queenless colony. So I ordered a new queen and put her in yesterday. Today my neighbour saw a swarm on his garage roof, which is close to the hive.

I have got another hive, but I'm pretty sure they swarmed yesterday - and they are a very small colony still - from a swarm I've had about six weeks or so.

So - did my intro of the new queen cause a present queen to swarm? Is that what happens if you introduce a queen to a hive that is queenright?

I guess I should have waited a bit longer - but they were so aggressive I felt I had to do something drastic quickly. I'm trying not to be discouraged, as I feel that I should be able to have a hive in my garden without a problem - and everything has been fine until now. This has knocked my confidence a bit.

Apart from the presence of wasps - which seems to be everyone's problem - what else could have caused them to suddenly turn in this way? It's really unpleasant going anywhere near them, and opening them up now is something I dread.

All your thoughts, advice and experience most welcome.

 

[Winker]

The flow in your area stopped and you bees got grumpy because they have nothing to do now.

You have to put a test frame in your hive to find out of its Queen right. The frame needs to have eggs in the cells so if the colony is not queen right they can make a new queen. If they don't make a QC then you have a queen in there.

Make sure they have enough food, that can make them grumpy too

 

[wightbees]

Do you know what type of Queen you had ,as i have read that the 2nd or 3rd generation
of some types can get pretty grumpy.

 

[deb]

I didn't have a test frame to put in, as my other hive were also 'between queens' and had no eggs.

The original queen was a buckfast.

They have loads of stores - in fact the stroppiness also co-incided with us harvesting the first few frames of honey. Could this have contributed to their mood change? I do suspect that we were a bit cack-handed, having not done it before, and attracted the wasps.

They still have stores in the brood box and a practically full super.

 

[Moggs]

I would suggest that you try to establish the true Q state of the colony. Your introduction of a Q without a test frame may have caused some serious mayhem, after what may have already been a tetchy period. This could have been for a number of reasons, including robbing, low flow, etc. They may have swarmed, especialy in consideration of your Q cell. There may be an unmated or newly mated Q - but it is getting late in the season now.

I would start by looking carefully for a queen, though virgins are notoriously difficult to spot. Can you get a test frame from somewhere? Act quickly, if only to establish whether your colony is queenright.

Sounds as if you may have taken your eye off the ball with both colonies - be careful as it is late to be getting things back on track.

PS - yes, your honey harvesting may well have added insult to injury.

 

[beeatshellards]

I agree with Moggs ,you really need to establish what is happening in both your hives, . Has the swarmed hive had any brood or eggs in the last six weeks, ?

 

[sugarbush]

Do you know what type of Queen you had ,as i have read that the 2nd or 3rd generation
of some types can get pretty grumpy.

Correct.

The original queen was a buckfast.

And that is the main breed I would be concerned about... 2nd generation Buckfasts tend to be very aggressive and foul tempered.

I hope your new queen was marked so that you can identify her in the hive. If she is not present I would make them queenless and requeen again.

 

[RoseCottage]

Sugarbush,

I assume you mean that if the OP had some Buckfast cross then a 2nd generation queen could be unpleasant.

Deb,
When you say Buckfast where did it come from? Is it a cross with anything?

All the best,
Sam

 

[oliver90owner]

If they don't make a QC then you have a queen in there.

Unfortunately not true. That result for a test frame is not a definitive one. The only definitive result is if queen cells are produced, the hive is Q-.

I only posted this yesterday and here we have the mythical result being expounded yet again.

Your colony could, by now, have laying workers which could also give the same result.

That said most of the postings could be correct 2nd generation queen, slowing flow, removal of honey, queenlessness, wasps, robbing bees.

This is one of the hazards of keeping bees in a residential garden. You should be removing them to an isolated (people-wise) apiary before furter problems arise.

I removed colonies from my garden earlier this year because they were showing signs of potentially causing problems. They have been replaced by some better natured bees.

Very sorry, but some tout bees as almost garden pets which they are not. I strongly recommend you move them from your garden, if unable to rectify the situation in the very short term.

Some have resorted to considering killing their colonies recently for these very reasons (in two cases, the colonies were taken away by other beekeepers).

RAB

 

[Moggs]

Deb - where in the Midlands are you (approximately)? Do you have access to an out-apiary site? I agree with RAB about garden bees, especially for a relative newcomer, they can be a whole bundle of fun and when they are, a good deal of experience may have to be brought to bear. I had bees in the garden ('Bees at the Bottom of the Garden' was quite a reasonable read but is easily misleading) but shifted them p.d.q. when they got tetchy and swarmy (sounds like something from the Simpsons). I have bees there again now but feel far better equipped to 'read' the signs of changing temperament and can move them within hours if needs be.

In the meantime, I would time any of your further inspections carefully so that your neighbours are not in the vicinity. Bear in mind that the bees may be pretty wound up for a while, especially after opening the hives.

Another consideration: do you have public liability insurance? You will, if you are a member of 'The Association'.

Good luck.

 

[deb]

Buckfast queen from reputable source last august - not a cross, as far as I know.

We are members of the BBKA - so have insurance.

Am a member of South Staffs and have good friends to advise there, but they're a bit far away and I'm actually closer to North Staffs. Need to get plugged into them.

Although we are residential - the gardens are very large and the bees are in a cut off corner by a back lane - with high ivy covered fence and trees, making a high flight path.

You're right that our inexperience has contributed to this problem - with a number of factors. I also think I've reacted too anxiously. My neighbours have been very good and want to support bees.

It has been extremely hot over the past few days, which hasn't helped. Cooler and wetter today, and my feeling is that I just need to leave them alone for a day or so. I have been looking in on them every 5 - 9 days, and I wonder if I've just been too interfering.

 

[drstitson]

couple of points.

1. which reputable source? - at least one sells BF hybrids (BFxcrecopia) routinely meaning that newbies first new queens following an AS or lost swarm in their second season of beekeeping will be F2s!!!!

2. your supercedure queen may be there but not mated yet - still early days - max 3 weeks since emergence? or mated but not yet laying.

3. remember, even if you had pure BF last year your supercedure queen will be an F2 (produced from an egg laid by the F1 queen which emerged after the swarm). another reason for aggressiveness as behaviour depends mainly on the nature of the queen pheromones rather than the offspring - as atested by anyone who has requeened and seen immediate change.

 

[oliver90owner]

Deb,

You said in post #1

They swarmed back in late April and, after what seemed forever, a new queen began to lay - badly! She must have emerged during the cold weather and had a poor mating flight. About a month ago I spotted one queen cell and decided to leave it - suspecting they were planning supersedure.

So Buckfast queen last year. OK not a cross (may have been for all we know)
Next generation at swarm in April. Now only 50% after mating with the local bees.
2nd generation offspring with the supercedure. Now possibly only 25% of your original queen of last August.

All the indications are of a bad tempered queen. They may not improve. Well, could be OK on occasions, but not to be trusted. I got stung twice (I was close to the colonies) and that was enough for me to ship the colonies out, PDQ. They were being defensive and (buzzing me) as I walked in front of the hives. Not good.

These suppliers don't tell you that you are 'locked' in to replacing the queen regularly with another bought-in item. Good of them, eh? You have set up and got going and then find out (unless you have read and understood the many warnings in books and on the net). New beek thinks everything is 'roses' and all bees behave just like the bees just purchased, until the colony swarms or supercedes...

There may be another reason for this behaviour, but things are not sounding too good.

RAB

 

[drstitson]

"These suppliers don't tell you that you are 'locked' in to replacing the queen regularly with another bought-in item. Good of them, eh? "

oh the joys of heterosis!!! anyone out there who grows their own will know full well the pleasure of buying new F1 seeds every season (unless willing to take chances with F2s).!

next we'll be seeing grafted bees in the marketplace!!!! (BTW grafted cucumber plants are worth the money though - massive crop of burpless vs standard plant last year - will try my own toms this way next year using my preferred vigorous rootstock)

 

[Moggs]

Hi Deb

Returning to your original post to tease out the issues:

In the past week - 10 days my lovely placid colony has undergone a total personality change.

They sometimes do!

They swarmed back in late April and, after what seemed forever, a new queen began to lay - badly! She must have emerged during the cold weather and had a poor mating flight. About a month ago I spotted one queen cell and decided to leave it - suspecting they were planning supersedure.

OK - read up about swarm control for next time (but note that I don't use the word 'prevention'). What do you mean by "badly"? Do you know for certain what happened to the Q cell? (Do you keep records)?

Since then - no eggs. Then they suddenly became unbearable. My bees are in my large garden, in a residential area. I've had them just over 12 months - but have had no problems at all. Now, suddenly, they're chasing and stinging the neighbours. I'm very worried about it.

"No eggs" could be normal. A Q takes 16 days to emerge and a successful mating could take many days. You may have a queen there. A test frame may be useful but see RAB's comment elsewhere. Bees can turn nasty for a number of reasons, food, wasps, Q issues or a combination of many.

I know that queenlessness is actually quite a rare thing - but I was pretty sure that the supersedure hadn't gone quite right and that I had a queenless colony. So I ordered a new queen and put her in yesterday. Today my neighbour saw a swarm on his garage roof, which is close to the hive.

Unfortunately queenlessness isn't so rare. Many queens are lost on mating flights for example. Queenlessness is often introduced by hasty decisions by the beekeeper, especially by new beekeepers who are sometimes prone to panic reactions. That said, we have identified that you could have an evil queen in there! My priority would be to check for a queenright colony.

I have got another hive, but I'm pretty sure they swarmed yesterday - and they are a very small colony still - from a swarm I've had about six weeks or so.

So you may have a viable queen. That will give you an opportunity to make careful interventions as may be needed before too long (e.g. uniting).

So - did my intro of the new queen cause a present queen to swarm? Is that what happens if you introduce a queen to a hive that is queenright?

Perhaps but far more likely that the queens fight it out. If you're very unlucky, neither survive.

I guess I should have waited a bit longer - but they were so aggressive I felt I had to do something drastic quickly. I'm trying not to be discouraged, as I feel that I should be able to have a hive in my garden without a problem - and everything has been fine until now. This has knocked my confidence a bit.

Don't worry - all is not lost! With beekeeping, it's important not to make hasty decisions, especially where queen cells are concerned (but you haven't made that mistake). The bees will wait, while you sip tea and ponder.

Suggestion - work carefully through both of your colonies to see if you can see evidence of a queen and or eggs. Eggs should appear to be laid in a reasonably uniform cell pattern, with just one egg at the base of each cell. At the same time, document what you see, state of stores, pollen arriving, bees emerging from cells, state of comb/ brood pattern, etc. Don't rush, unless they are giving you considerable grief - and then, just close them down - try not to use more smoke than is absolutely necessary. Photo's may be useful for a more reasoned view from this forum.

If you can get a test frame of eggs and young brood, this would give you a better idea of the situation, should they make QC's.

In the words of Douglas Adams - "Don't Panic!" (but consider moving them, if they are a real nuisance).

 

[sugarbush]

I specialize in managing aggressive bees. When everybody else in the country is breeding for a calm temperament and requeening aggressive hives, I nurture a mild level of aggressiveness.

I have found that mildly defensive hives are less likely to get robbed, are generally more productive, and survive long cold winters better because the queens shut down later and start back up earlier.

The down side being that you can't super them up all summer and extract in the fall. Large aggressive hives are bad news. I make frequent splits to keep them within a manageable size. (two brood boxes and two med supers) Sometimes that means I have to split them down 2-3 times per-season. If you don't have the room for the splits you will have to sell them as you split.

Unfortunately your case being what it is, you really need to find out what is wrong and correct it quickly, or move the hives. If allowed, you may want to consider putting up a "hive locker" around your hives. It is essentially a tall fence that forces the workers up and over to a higher flight path, it also prevents the guards from looking out the entrance and targeting people and pets who are near by. It would make a huge difference if the guards can't see beyond a few feet in front of the hive.

I think you have enough information in this thread to figure out what is wrong. I would focus on the 2nd generation aspect most. In the future if you continue to run Buckfast you need to be diligent about swarm prevention and re-queen if your's starts failing.

 

[Poly Hive]

Laying workers are relatively rare. I have had them once in my experience.

PH

 

[sugarbush]

Laying workers are relatively rare. I have had them once in my experience.

PH

In my experience; they occur 100% of the time if a hive is Q- for more than several weeks and has no prospects for a queen.

I don't think a laying worker is the case in this situation.

If it does have a laying worker you will have to move the hive to correct the situation. They will not accept a new queen and you will have to shake out the entire colony. (not advised you do this in a populated area)

 

[Hivemaker.]

Strange as it seems,but many Q+ colonys can have a small proportion of laying workers as well.

 

[deb]

Thanks all.

I have inspected regularly. When I said the queen was laying 'badly' - I meant the pattern was poor and there was a high level of drone brood. Then, about four weeks ago - no more eggs and a single queen cell. As I say - I hoped supersedure might sort it out - but this would have meant that I had a third generation queen.

I did wonder if the simple process of supersedure gave them a tendency to become a bit more edgy, as their change in temperament did coincide with the timings of this. And of course, this queen could have been lost on a mating flight.

I suspect - as you all say - that it's down to a number of factors all at once - new, possibly aggressive, queen or queenlessness; robbing wasps; hot weather; honey harvesting etc...

I do keep records, but not as assiduously as I should. I'm relying too much on memory to track the course of this problem. Lesson learned.

My hope is that the new queen I introduced will prevail and settle in. They do seem a little calmer, but it's cooler today. I'll look at them properly in a day or so - weather permitting.