A tale of Bailey, swarms, queen excluder and advice needed.

[Mamahilz]

I am an inexperienced Beek. I received my first colony last year- but the comb they were on was very old and needed replacement. I tried a Bailey manoeuvre to change my comb in brood box.
My queen was laying prolifically and the brood looked healthy and patterned well in the new comb. I was due to remove the lower brood box next week once the brood had all hatched
On Monday my neighbour noticed a small swarm, the size of a football, on a low bush in her garden and many bees were in the air from my hive. By the time I had ‘gowned up’ to inspect them, the bees appeared to return to the original hive!
I later discovered the colony decided to make some queen cells in the lower brood box, which I missed in my last inspection (and the queen was trapped in the upper box). These were sealed but not opened
I presume it was because her pheromone wasn’t filling the hive (she was a new queen from last June). As she was trapped in the upper brood box, with the new comb and couldn’t leave with the swarm, they returned.
That evening, when the activity settled, I did an artificial swarm into a spare hive next to my original one- with the lower brood box from the bailey manoeuvre (which had a couple of frames of capped brood still, with loads of stores and 1 frame of brood (eggs/larvae/capped) from the new box and 1 selected uncapped queen cell). This hive seems to be settling, and I’m waiting for the new virgin queen to arrive.
It appears that I have 1 strong original colony and an artificial swarm, which is unusually large because of the bailey manoeuvre I was conducting.
Now here is my problem….
The original hive has the original queen with one super full of stores, one spare super, plenty of brood and (I thought)- no queen cells. The books I read about artificial swarm, suggested for the time being I should contain the queen by keeping a queen excluder at the bottom of the hive
The problem I have now is that the original hive is now once again very active, and looks like they was to swarm yet again. They can’t because the QE is containing the queen as its at the bottom of the hive. I am wondering if I missed a Queen cell, and I’m concerned that if I open them up, my queen will take flight with her entourage.
I feel I’ve got into a bit of a mess, and would value some advice. Was I wrong to put the QE at the bottom (read about this for artificial swarms for keeping the original queen, after the procedure)? Should I remove it? Should I leave well alone? What if my queen is damaged could a virgin be needing to take flight in my original hive as well as my artificial swarm??? How many times will a colony swarm if they get the chance?
Any advice would be very welcome!

 

[tonybloke]

original (new comb) colony = thorough inspection for any queen cells ( get someone else with you to have a look as well, 2 pairs eyes better than one)

if no queen cells, you should remove QE to let some drones out to mate with virgin from your other colony.

 

[Mamahilz]

Thanks for advice- i hadn't thought of the problem for drones getting out. I'll check tomorrow. If there are queen cells, assuming i have dealt with the problem that triggered the swarm- over crowding, separating the queen in the per box etc, should i destroy them, now that i have done an artificial swarm? and if i do should i remove the excluder anyway?

 

[tonybloke]

remove any q/c's in box with queen in ( she should have enough room to keep her occupied)

 

[rae]

The important bit about the AS is that the queen goes into a cavernous, empty box - with at most one frame of brood to ward off any thoughts about absconding. This makes the colony think that they must have swarmed, as they are in an empty new home with mostly flying bees.

You have:

- an original queen in a fairly full box of brood with nurse + flying bees - she will in all likelihood try and swarm again.

- a split with stores and a frame of brood + a queen cell - this will be absolutely fine, and you simply have to leave it for the virgin to get mated. They are a bit light on brood (more on this later).

So what would I do (bearing in mind that I am only a year more experienced than you!).

1) Look in the hive with the original queen. Are there queen cells? Really, are you sure there are no queen cells? If no queen cells, remove the QE underneath as you will be trapping drones. Watch them closely - weekly at minimum, they are highly likely to swarm.

2) If there are queen cells, do a full AS. Queen in an empty box, one frame of brood from the hive she was in, the rest foundation. Ideally a super of stores as well (if no super around, be prepared to feed if the weather turns pants). This box should be on the original site.

3) If you have to do the AS, then you will have several brood frames left over, at least one with a queen cell. You now have the basis of a third colony, so they go into yet another box, and you wait for your virgin to emerge and mate. I would give one of the frames of brood to your current virgin colony - they will be a bit light with only one frame.

Unless you are well prepared already, you are about to learn the lesson of all new beeks: you can never have enough kit. I'm still learning it, this winter I made up a ton of brood boxes and supers....and I'm still running out!

 

[chickendave]

I would do the same as rae
but if you do not want to make any more increases leave the queen in the brood box on the original site put a couple of supers on then a snelgrove board and then the third box in rae solution on top of the snelgrove board
you will then have two colonies on one site that you can combine later on,the advantage of this is you should get a bumper crop and you will have a very strong colony going into winter on a double brood but you will need to get more equipment,for every colony I keep enough equipment for a colony and a halve

 

[Mamahilz]

Thanks Rae and Chickendave, useful suggestions. I am keen to keep to just 2-3 colonies at max and didn't think I'd be on my 3rd colony already! Yes I need a bit more kit- think I'll go shopping later...
in point 3 of Rae's advice, the colony with the virgin queen has more than 1 frame of brood- one from the new box on the old site, and some brood on a few frames which was still to emerge from the Bailey manoeuvre in the old brood box...The bailey manoeuvre seems to be flawed, as it prevents the queen from roaming everywhere with her pheromone. This must increase the risk of swarming, when the weather has been so good, and one has a prolific layer...
Anyway I'll take a look with a second pair of eyes to look for swarm cells and update this post later.

 

[Mamahilz]

sorry Rae- just realised i mis read point 3 and thought you were talking about the AS i had done earlier in the week.
Have had a look- yes- queen cells: 2 with eggs, one with a grub, and one closed. but also 2 which look like they have been torn down- Queen looks really well- laying well- lots of eggs, larvae and capped brood. the colony were really calm, very full- and not much space for laying, as the super i had on was full of honey. I have taken the swarm cells down for now, and given them more space. I realise i am unlikely to get them out of the swarming mood- and have ordered more equipment so I can do an AS if they rebuild the swarm cells this time around. (which from what you say seems to be likely). I haven't taken the QE out yet- but will pan to do so when i've got the equipment to deal with them.
Any more comments or advice?

 

[TOBY-3652]

Rea spot on about running out of equipment .. I started with 1 colony/ 2 nucs/7 spare brood boxes/9 supersand 2 empty nuc boxes/// i now have spare only 2 supers/1 nuc box and 3 spare brood boxes/ how quick we need spare kit has took me by suprise