Replacing queen excluder in the Spring

[Dishmop]

more importantly - do the matchsticks go above or below the QE?

Depends if the no smoking area is up or downstairs.

 

[BeeJayBee]

Bearing in mind that this colony is in Cornwall, where it's warmer than most other parts of the country.

What would be the result in this instance (with an top super that's been used throughout the winter for stores) if the super was moved below the brood box now, and the queen excluder placed on the top of the brood box?

Would the bees move downwards, with the queen start laying in the super, or would they finish emptying it of stores and use the brood box for brood etc.?

 

[Dishmop]

and what would be above the QE?

 

[BeeJayBee]

and what would be above the QE?

*shrug Whatever the beekeeper wants, probably a nice clean super.

 

[Deaner666]

Deaner - at what point last season did you remove the QE and what were the contents of the super like at that point? did you feed subsequently?

I can't remember when we took the QE off... later than we should have done I think as we didn't realise we were supposed to until further on in the season! We did wait until it was unseasonably warm though...

At that point there were a decent amount of stores in the super (we didn't take any honey off for ourselves in the first year). We subsequently put 1kg of candy on top of the super frames in January as a top up (we're still getting our heads around what is sufficient stores for the winter).

When we took the lid off at the weekend whilst thinking of replacing the QX we noted that the amount of stores in the super was VERY healthy... the frames looked absolutely classic, with sealed honey in a perfect oval in the centre of every frame.

BTW it's a national super on a commercial brood box.

 

[Deaner666]

Thanks all for the advice... there's a definite concensus appeared - leave it until later in the season and don't worry even if the queen is in the super.

In ref. to the person who mentioned books: I've read Ted Hooper's book (brilliant!) and A Practical Manual of Beekeeping by David Cramp (not as engaging and left with me with a few doubts).

I appreciate the "Don't believe everything you read" comment as well. Anyone who knows me knows I'm a sceptic with my own opinions! You've got to start somewhere though.

I also attended a 10 week course run locally last winter. Trouble with beekeeping though, as I've often seen mentioned, is that if you ask two beekeepers a question, you'll get three answers. The same is true of the literature on the subject I've found.

The BBKA mag I'm particularly sceptical about, as you'll sometimes see contradictory information in the same issue. Which is why we didn't press the point of putting the QE back on when we realised it wouldn't be as simple as first thought. Not to mention the dubious, business centric nature of the organisation as a whole - but then that's a top for another thread methinks.

 

[Deaner666]

When does it tell you to take the matchsticks out?

Matchsticks? This is the 21st century. I'm using lighters.

 

[itma]

and what would be above the QE?

The roof?
I gather that its quite usual to store the QX (when not being used) above the crown board and below the roof. Even if my own new one is currently hidden away behind the sofa ...
Clarification -- the insulation, of course, would go (likely inside a super) between crown board and stored QX ...



The only reason for you to bother about the super would be if there was something "wrong" with the honey in it and you didn't want to extract that 'old' stuff as part of your crop. Whether that be because of solid & 'medicinal' ivy honey, treatment residues, stored sugar syrup or anything else. If you want the bees to clean it out for you (before autumn), then putting it under the BB in a few weeks would probably be advisable.
But particularly with only the one colony, this is a bad time of year to do anything that might endanger HMQ.

 

[Dishmop]

Trouble with beekeeping though, as I've often seen mentioned, is that if you ask two beekeepers a question, you'll get three answers.

I bet that even if bees could tell you what they wanted, they'd do something different anyway.

 

[BeeJayBee]

Bearing in mind that this colony is in Cornwall, where it's warmer than most other parts of the country.

What would be the result in this instance (with an top super that's been used throughout the winter for stores) if the super was moved below the brood box now, and the queen excluder placed on the top of the brood box?

Would the bees move downwards, with the queen start laying in the super, or would they finish emptying it of stores and use the brood box for brood etc.?

Anybody?

 

[susbees]

The roof?
I gather that its quite usual to store the QX (when not being used) above the crown board and below the roof. Even if my own new one is currently hidden away behind the sofa ...

Come on itma...all the coolest beekeepers have a QE and an OMF propped in the corner of the kitchen and some half painted Keilers on top of the dog crate...

 

[BILL.HEARD]

i agree, keep supers for honey only.

"QE is only needed when there is a flow and you are aiming to get some honey stored.

I like to keep my supers brood free, mostly to deter wax moths when in storage"

I was talking specifically about when a QE was needed NOT a super!

The only way to keep supers brood free is to only use them as supers and NEVER part of the brood nest (ie only would on multiples of full brood chambers for brood and supers for the supers). No overwintering on brood and a half.

 

[Teemore]

Just a point of clarification: did you use worker or drone foundation in the super you left in place?

If you used drone foundation in the super and the colony moves up and establishes a brood nest in it, you are likely to have an awful lot of drones in the colony and few workers when you need them.

 

[Deaner666]

Just a point of clarification: did you use worker or drone foundation in the super you left in place?

If you used drone foundation in the super and the colony moves up and establishes a brood nest in it, you are likely to have an awful lot of drones in the colony and few workers when you need them.

Worker foundation.

It had never dawned on me that technically I was a running a brood and a half (something everyone seems to advise against and definitely not something I wanted to do) since the queen doesn't lay over winter and I assumed we'd be putting the QX back on before she started again.

It seems like a lot of you are against using a super for stores in the winter, that you just use your brood boxes with crownboard and roof. How can a beginner like me, who has no experience of how heavy a box should feel when you heft it, be confident that the colony has enough stores for the winter?

Again, cheers for all the info, this forum is turning out to be really informative!

 

[drstitson]

people aren't against running brood and a half in winter - in fact it's almost essential as a national brood doesn't really hold enough stores to ensure survival.

anyone on commercial, 14x12 or dadant/LS jumbo has the equivalent of at least brood and a half worth of potential stores in the one box.

 

[Deaner666]

The only way to keep supers brood free is to only use them as supers and NEVER part of the brood nest (ie only would on multiples of full brood chambers for brood and supers for the supers). No overwintering on brood and a half.

drstitson: I'm confused, I was basing my comment on the above quote, which you posted and others had agreed with...

 

[Hivemaker.]

in fact it's almost essential as a national brood doesn't really hold enough stores to ensure survival.

The majority of mine have always over wintered very well in a single standard national broods,around 45lbs of stores,depends i suppose on location, and if you have thrifty bees, or sugar guzzlers.

 

[MJBee]

Quote:It seems like a lot of you are against using a super for stores in the winter, that you just use your brood boxes with crownboard and roof. How can a beginner like me, who has no experience of how heavy a box should feel when you heft it, be confident that the colony has enough stores for the winter?Unquote.

Deaner666 - I have all sorts of hives but my main honey producers are Commercials. I configure them for winter as follows:- OM Floor, Single commercial brood box, solid (no feed holes) crown board, 150mm deep roof.
I feed them if necessary in the Autumn until they reach 40kg.

On the 16th Feb the lightest of 5 was still 28.1kg, the heaviest was 33.3kg. I always have 2.5kg slabs of fondant at hand and if any colony drops to 25kg it gets a slab.

These general weights work for me, hope this helps

 

[Deaner666]

Deaner666 - I have all sorts of hives but my main honey producers are Commercials. I configure them for winter as follows:- OM Floor, Single commercial brood box, solid (no feed holes) crown board, 150mm deep roof.
I feed them if necessary in the Autumn until they reach 40kg.

On the 16th Feb the lightest of 5 was still 28.1kg, the heaviest was 33.3kg. I always have 2.5kg slabs of fondant at hand and if any colony drops to 25kg it gets a slab.

These general weights work for me, hope this helps

It certainly does. That sounds like a great rule of thumb system. I'll have to make a note!

I've got eyelet hooks for the hive, strap and fishing style suspension weight so I could easily work to a similar system next winter. Thanks for the advice.

 

[drstitson]

my point was that if one wishes to GUARANTEE that supers NEVER contain brood then one has to either use large brood boxes (14x12, commercial or dadant) OR multiples of smaller brood boxes (eg nat or LS).

otherwise you may well find that your bees need access to more stores than 1 brood box can offer (apologies to HM but he must admit he is in the balmy SW peninsula rather than siberian east/north!).

how do you provide this? give them a super of stores. so what if come march/april there is some brood in it - place it above a QE and 3 weeks later problem solved.

brood and a half is messy. makes manipulations difficult. choose a more appropriate format (unless your bees are thrifty and your climate is favorable!)

Finman may not experience the same conditions as we do in the UK and may disagree with some things our experts suggest BUT one thing he'll tell you - stick to one size for brood boxes.