Manley's views on national brood chamber size and unsuitability for wintering

[ksjs]

I'm reading Manley's Bee Farming at the moment and think he sounds pretty amazing if a touch prickly at times. Anyway, he pretty much pours total scorn on the idea that a national brood chamber could EVER provide enough stores and brood space for a strong colony to winter on.

No doubt many of you will say "mine are fine" but his point is that they may make it through in spite of rather than because of the national's size. Is he right / wrong?

More generally, he seems at odds with a great deal of what is accepted as common wisdom. What are people's thoughts on this? Was he right, was he a reactionary or is the 'truth' somewhere in between?

I can't help but conclude, based on limited experience admittedly, that he speaks total sense.

 

[MuswellMetro]

all old photo and films my association have from the 1930s show 95% of hives in our area running as brood and a half over winter with insulation in the roof.

we now mainly use 14x12, with a few dartington and commercials now

 

[huntsman666]

Depends entirely on your bee type.

Would you kennel a Great Dane in one built for an English Setter?

 

[Midland Beek]

I think you maybe underestimate how many beeks use single National. All the National users I know use 14x12, double brood, or brood and a half.

 

[Poly Hive]

Yes well maybee MB.

I over wintered single nationals with pretty good success in Aberdeenshire but then as I keep being told I was not housing AMM. LOL

I also used single Langstroths and they were fine, but the colony in the Mod Dadant kept dying out. When I asked Bernard about it a few year later he admitted that for demo purposes he reinstated the colony in spring for the beginners, as it cough, never survived the winter.

So you can reasonably conclude the hive can in fact be too big. But we already knew that hmm?

PH

 

[jakethedog]

More generally, he seems at odds with a great deal of what is accepted as common wisdom.

do you have any speccific examples to mind? I daresay the old comb issue (which Hivemaker recently flagged up in another thread is one) but what else?

 

[Poly Hive]

I canna remember the specifics off hand but at the time Manley, Gale and x other whose name, ah it may have been Rowse were the only big scale men in the UK and they were I believe the first to actually keep bees for a living so a lot of the "normal" practices were alien to them.

Actually not that much has changed. If you ask some of the big guys how they run their bees compared to the average amateur the situation is pretty similar even now.

PH

 

[mbc]

Nationals are fine for overwintering in my area but then all beekeeping is dependant on local conditions. As Ph says, hives with huge frames often dont make it through the winter and I think its because parts of the cluster get separated due to huge slabs of comb to navigate before getting to the other side.
Before believing everything Manley wrote was " total sense " keep in mind that if you're not wealthy enough to employ a smoker boy to go in front opening hives and another following you to close hives then your beekeeping practices will differ.
Is it also possible that Manley had a vested interest in promoting foreign bees needing bigger brood boxes ?

 

[jakethedog]

bit off thread for a moment, Madoc(sp?) was another large scale contempoary of Manley who, according to Atkinson in his 'Bee Breeding' book, should be given credit for coming up with the 'manley frame'.

 

[greatbritishhoney]

I think the phrase "strong colony" is the key thing here.
If I split a colony several times over the summer they will generally over-winter quite happily on a single national brood.

 

[itma]

Anyway, he pretty much pours total scorn on the idea that a national brood chamber could EVER provide enough stores and brood space for a strong colony to winter on.

I think the phrase "strong colony" is the key thing here.
...

At the risk of being UNcontroversial, wouldn't it be just plain common sense to say that if your colony is notably strong, you should be looking to over-winter on brood and a half or even double brood ... (if you are choosing to run with ordinary national boxes).
It doesn't seem like any sort of radical statement, even to this newB.


On the other hand, if folks are looking for something to take sides on ...

 

[oliver90owner]

One of the uncontroversial items, at the time, was that of leaving the colony to it's own devices until about mid-February after the autumn feed.

How many, I wonder, fed fondant to their bees this last winter. I didn't, for one.

RAB

 

[Skyhook]

Yes well maybee MB.

I over wintered single nationals with pretty good success in Aberdeenshire but then as I keep being told I was not housing AMM. LOL

I also used single Langstroths and they were fine, but the colony in the Mod Dadant kept dying out. When I asked Bernard about it a few year later he admitted that for demo purposes he reinstated the colony in spring for the beginners, as it cough, never survived the winter.

So you can reasonably conclude the hive can in fact be too big. But we already knew that hmm?

PH

Too big, or too wide? Given the number of people who advocate having an empty chamber under the BB for winter, it's not the volume that matters as much as the width, as long as the cluster is near the top- which, if you think about warm air spreading out, is logical.

Which would seem to be a vote for 14 x 12.

 

[jakethedog]

Too big, or too wide? Given the number of people who advocate having an empty chamber under the BB for winter, it's not the volume that matters as much as the width, as long as the cluster is near the top- which, if you think about warm air spreading out, is logical.

Which would seem to be a vote for 14 x 12.

yet the internal width of a MD is almost identical to the internal width of a national and just that little bit 'longer' -approx two inches.

 

[mbc]

approx two inches is about 6 bee lengths or about 36 ft in human terms, not just a little bit extra

 

[jakethedog]

approx two inches is about 6 bee lengths or about 36 ft in human terms, not just a little bit extra

it was just a general observation on the point that it's the width that matters rather than depth, personally I don't believe that it has that much effect -at least those on MD's don't seem to be loosing more colonies during winter than those on BS. You may ask how I know that, well i don't know it for sure but what I do know is that while there continues to be a large number of people/companies offering BS nuclei for sale there are nowhere near as many suppliers catering for the MD market which suggests to me that no one has found a sufficient demand to make it worth offering replacement MD colonies each spring.

Remember, the op's reference was that the national was too small not that the MD was too large.

edit: By the way, before someone else takes exception to my maths, I concede -on after thought that it's probably closer to an extra four inches in length due to the national handholds. Still don't see it making the difference.

 

[Swarm]

Are you saying that National nucs are more popular because of the mortalities encountered by National users and that we see less 'other' nucs because those hive types don't suffer losses?
I would suggest they are simply catering for the market; supplying the most widely used equipment for the most widely used hive.

 

[jakethedog]

Are you saying that National nucs are more popular because of the mortalities encountered by National users and that we see less 'other' nucs because those hive types don't suffer losses?

No! That isn't what I'm saying.

The point was simply that there isn't (so far as I'm aware) any huge demand for nucs to restock dead-out MDs. Of course there are winter failures in all types of hives but I don't see how the width of the brood area can be a cause in itself -if it was then surely those people who use some of the 'longer' topbar hive designs would also be suffering the same losses because their boxes are 'too wide'?

I'm not suggesting that Manley was right because plenty of people winter on single BS boxes without problem but in the same vain I can't believe that having a box with a larger footprint increases winter mortality. I'd be happy to read any long term studies which show that that is the case (I'm quite happy to learn something here) but until then i simply can't get my head around the idea. Presumably Manley and Br. Adam (amongst many others) would have held different views with regards to hive size if the larger footprint was resulting in higher losses?

 

[jakethedog]

he pretty much pours total scorn on the idea that a national brood chamber could EVER provide enough stores and brood space for a strong colony to winter on.

Hi ksjs, is there any chance of a quote from HF to set this all in context?

I only ask because he certainly overwintered full stocks on BS frames -12 comb boxes with the dadant footprint if I remember right (although he would have almost certainly have been using one and a half inch spacing so the same boxes would probably take a comfortable 13 combs with the slightly narrower spacing which is normally available today).

 

[Into the lions den]

The point was simply that there isn't (so far as I'm aware) any huge demand for nucs to restock dead-out MDs.

I could tell you some hair raising stories off forum about SOME with MD needing nucs for repopulation...................clue.......they are READILY available AND purchased.......but MD not much used in this country.

Of course there are winter failures in all types of hives but I don't see how the width of the brood area can be a cause in itself -if it was then surely those people who use some of the 'longer' topbar hive designs would also be suffering the same losses because there boxes are 'too wide'?

FWIW, in our climate up here the Smith overwinters better than, and outperforms, the Langstroth. It is wider but shorter, and we tend to think it to be a ventilation issue rather than a box size issue. In the poly versions of both, with large mesh panels in the floor, there is no difference.

I'm not suggesting that Manley was right because plenty of people winter on single BS boxes

We winter ALL our Smiths (c800) on singles, and that is exactly the same box size as a National. Irrespective of bee type too. One 14Kg feed suffices, even after the addition of foundation into the nest in September.Agree storngly with the leave them alone till feb/march belief. You can only harm not help if you are happy that you have fed them enough. Damage a queen in October or November or even later through nosiness and you colony is knackered. Of course we do our Langstroth the same way up here, but going to add second drawn boxes under the active box of very strong colonies for wintering in the south just in case they gain too much weight in the nest with late ivy and 'plug out', which is a problem.

Presumably Manley and Br. Adam (amongst many others) would have held different views with regards to hive size if the larger footprint was resulting in higher losses?

Whilst reading and rereading these authors from the past is a worthwhile exercise, you have to remember that they are really nowadays primarily history books. Fascinating yes, insightful yes, but valid in todays situations with our bee types and changed forage and weather patterns, plus the real big one, varroa, thrown in? Doubtful I'm afraid to say. Many of the basic rules have changed since either of these two gentlemen were at their peak and in reality there never was a 'one size fits all' method.

*****