Is it getting late to make increase?

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Touch wood, my various AS and Demaree manipulations have been a success but I have ended up making increase from the "wrong" colony.

So I would like to take a nuc from my main 4 box colony with a view to making increase rather than swarm prevention.

Is there still time this year to do that with high confidence of getting a winter-ready colony or should I just consider buying a queen or some other timesaver?

 

[YorkshireBees]

Personally I am still making Nucs up, they may grow to a full colony for winter or may be wintered as Nucs if they don't get big enough.

I inspected one hive that had increased from 5 to 10 frames of bias in 7-8 days so with a good queen I don't see why a Nuc started now will not create a viable colony for winter survival.

 

[Roola]

We've still got the main flow to come in London haven't we? I guess that will really help build up? For what its worth, I ended up splitting my colony quite late last year (July) although I did have to introduce a mated queen as a result.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Early enough IMHO. planning on making a few more up by the end of this month.

 

[oliver90owner]

Is there still time this yearning

It is barely a week into June! There is absolutely loads of time.

Demaree the colony for queen cell(s) and just get on with it. Yes buying in a mated queen could be a faster option, but that would not be increase from your better colony.

The only immediate target is sufficient bees by the time wasps become a nuisance. Just don't go feeding the nuc excessively when she starts laying! Brood, not food is your aim.

Dependent on flows, weather, etc of course but, you have colonies from which you can transfer emerging brood to strengthen them really quickly if needed.

So, I don't see any problem at all, provided you go about it in a sensible way. Draw a predicted time line for expansion; can't be sure when wasp nests will mature but you could look back at your notes or last year's posts on the forum re earliest wasp problems. You can then compare your ideal prediction with what you actually achieve.

RAB

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Demaree the colony for queen cell(s) and just get on with it.

My Buckies are awesome and I want this Q's genes but they are not makinq QCs upstairs (been Demareed a month, over a feeding board) so I have to get a bit more radical.

That has me thinking of how to use my other colonies as donors, moving / AS ing while not stuffing up yield of desired parent colony etc etc and THAT started me thinking of you because boy it's easy to get confused; all this thinking is hard...

 

[enrico]

If you are demareeing with queen below, you won't be getting queen cells up top now!!! You would have known that after the first week surely or am I missing something!
E

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

No, Enrico, not missing anything. But it's only a couple of days ago that I figured first split had failed. Took the opportunity to put a test frame in one of my other strain's splits, hoping one had failed too but no go.

Current thinking is to move stronger split and put egg-bearing frames and brood bees from the Buckfast colony on that site. I do not mind weakening colonies of second strain in order to make increase from Buckfasts

 

[JohnRoss]

I made two nuc's up in the first week of aughust last year (bought queens) they built up to fill a brood box and both went through winter fine.

 

[mbc]

I made two nuc's up in the first week of aughust last year (bought queens) they built up to fill a brood box and both went through winter fine.

They can even be made up a bit later on round here, as RAB alluded to, it just takes making them up that little bit stronger and care taken in the balance of the population of the nuc so that they've a solid chance of repelling invaders.

 

[Hivemaker.]

They can even be made up a bit later on round here

And here, last year made up the last nucs for over wintering during the first week of September, even full size stocks can be made up late if required.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

HELP!! I might have found the flaw with Demaree...

If you are demareeing with queen below, you won't be getting queen cells up top now!!! You would have known that after the first week surely or am I missing something!
E

I am new, inexperienced and wildly out of my depth in "Buckybeast" so please be understanding. "He who is a fool and knows he is a fool, teach him; he may learn something" or however it goes.

So, just inspected and there is no trace of the Red Queen Unseen (who I have actually got OK at spotting). I had put a QE over the bottom brood box because she had been having a high old time in drone-foundation supers. Although I saw her 4 days ago, I cannot rule out that she was above the QE, just as I cannot rule out having squished her. I could see no brood at all below the QE. Pollen everywhere instead.

On Thursday I had taken a test frame for the other strain (but today both queens in lay: YAY! and just as well in the circumstances) and put another in the "upstairs nursery" The test frame showed larvae of about 2 or 3 days old. The Demareed frame showed larvae of about 1 or 2 days. Play cups around the place, but no EQCs. So no conclusive proof she is around although it is just possible she made it up to carry on where she left off.

If I squished her 4 days ago, the colony should still be viable on those Demareed larvae. I reunited on the Finman principle of giving them the best chance of sorting themselves out and me sorting the mess out later, giving them at least a small chance to raise an EQ.

So here is my question. If, as Enrico points out, the top brood box "gets used" to being Q- and the bottom box thinks it is hopelessly Q- (because I took all the young brood and squished HM), is it possible that a Demareed colony just slides needlessly to extinction?

The colony is PROBABLY alright, but I am worried and I have to say they were NOT their usual cheerful Bucky selves this afternoon (in full sunshine).

 

[oliver90owner]

They make queens under the supercedure instinct in the top brood (the 'demaree') because thy think the queen pheromones are somewhat weak (still there, but weak). No larvae for viable conversion, means no chance of them drawing a queen cell in any frame moved up more than six days previously. Clear so far.

What might be happening in the bottom box is a completely different matter. The (usual) scenario is of a queen with oodles of space to lay, so no swarming impulse from the workers. Because that is the usual (and desired) situation, swarming does not occur as long as there are no queen cells left up top to upset the 'apple cart'.


Note, I said usual. The system was designed long ago with less prolific stocks than nowadays. Account of changes needs to be considered, not ignored.

If I were to be demareeing (I have no 'will' and not the 'power' to do that on a regular basis on umpteen colonies these days) I would be wanting/expecting a regular supply of queen cells for rearing my few queens needed each year. That means transferring open brood to the top box on a weekly basis. That means the bottom box would be checked, on a cursory basis, for queen cells weekly. Demareeing is not a one-off panacea for swarm avoidance, with no further effort required after the initial manipulation.

You really need to rule out where she is not. That leaves few places where you will find her, if there. It is the beekeeper who would cause problems if squishing queens, but I would never ever take all the open brood from that bottom box. Emergency queen cells with an early observation of no new brood must ring alarm bells at the weekly inspection. If it doesn't, you are in trouble.

RAB

PS I think I have covered a few points which are relevant to the poster's concerns, but not 100% sure!

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

I would never ever take all the open brood from that bottom box.

Yes, that is today's learning point :- / I thought of going back in to put the youngest brood back downstairs but decided against; too much manipulation and I trust them to find it now. Will inspect again at the weekend and if she's still AWOL put in a test frame.

On balance, I think she's around and I am having familiar struggles of seeing eggs in a crowded BB, but thanks for the reassurance o90o and BIG THANKS for the tip about leaving open brood with HM.