insulation covers

[beekim]

hi just been looking at a thread on insulation covers dose every one insulate?what do you use? and how do you do it .thanks in advance.

 

[oliver90owner]

If you have actually read the thread you will know they don't!

Suggest you read the thread a little more carefully. All your questions are answered there

 

[itma]

And searching the forum for 'Kingspan' will turn up plenty more explanatory threads!

// (or even search for 'insulation' ... )

 

[mark s]

And theres another new poster who will think twice about asking a question!!!!!!

 

[jackbee]

And theres another new poster who will think twice about asking a question!!!!!!

i know what you mean but at least it's politer than it has been

 

[beekim]

thanks marks s

 

[BeeJayBee]

I don't think it's quite the same as the thread about hive covers.

...dose every one insulate?
what do you use?
and how do you do it

We do insulate. We use polystyrene hives, which have a thick slab of insulation beneath the metal roof.

Our wooden hives, when used, are insulated with kingspan sourced from building sites. Always some beneath the roof and, if a small colony, some within the brood box too instead of leaving empty spaces. If there's any spare it goes outside, on top of the roof. Probably not needed, but it doesn't do any harm.

 

[richardbees]

Beekim

I put a square of loft insulation - retrieved from skips - on top of the cover board underneath the roof.....

...I believe the commonest make is "Kingspan"

 

[drstitson]

kingspan 5-10 cm directly on top of SOLID (wood or plastic) crownboard.

 

[Luminos]

kingspan 5-10 cm directly on top of SOLID (wood or plastic) crownboard.

Me too, with a cutout so that fondant can slot in, if needed; otherwise covered.
I don't have the insulation on in summer, though.

 

[alanf]

Actually, a very good question, There is an answer, at least to the question of if everyone uses insulation, in the poll started by drstitson in jan2011. It is still open but the last comment was mar2011. The results below are as they stand at the time this post was written. The poll comes with the usual caveats about self selection. It's open voting so that may put some off and the small number of 'other' will cover a wide range of variants, including multiple categories. It's one of the better poll question sets in that there are essentially three questions with mutually exclusive answers and all the combinations are covered. What sort of floor (solid, omf open or omf closed), do you use top ventilation (yes or no) and do you use top insulation (yes or no).

There is at least one simplification which helps analysis in that it restricts the question to wintering. Another simplification which might have been made is restricting to wooden hives: at least one post says they use poly hives but without top insulation. Built in insulation but not counted as such because it's not additional.

Hard to post a table here but in combination of: Floor type, Ventilation, Insulation, Count, Percentage

• Solid, None, None, 4, 2.4%
• Solid, Top, None, 8, 4.8%
• Solid, None, Top, 2,1.2%
• Solid, Top, Top, 2, 1.2%
• OMF-open, None, None, 36, 21.6%
• OMF-open, Top, None, 13, 7.8%
• OMF-open, None, Top, 72, 43.1%
• OMF-open, Top, Top, 6, 3.6%
• OMF-closed, None, None, 4, 2.4%
• OMF-closed, Top, None, 2, 1.2%
• OMF-closed, None, Top, 6, 3.6%
• OMF-closed, Top, Top, 6, 3.6%
• Other, 6, 3.6%

Of those who could answer the questions (ignoring other) the split of floor types was:

• Solid, 16, 10%
• OMF-open, 127, 79%
• OMF-closed, 18, 11%

The ventilation split was:

• Top ventilation, 37, 23%
• No top ventilation, 124, 77%

The insulation split was:

• Top insulation, 94, 58%
• No top insulation, 67, 42%

The conclusion is that there are clear majorities for leaving the OMF open. not using top ventilation and insulating at the top. The numbers are probably as clear an answer of the majority opinions as you'll find anywhere. If there is any correlation between questions it's that those using solid floors are less likely to use insulation and those with top insulation don't also ventilate (which you might expect). Being beekeepers, however, all the combinations are in use somewhere. Asking around and observing locally, it could be under representing those using solid floors and those who use no insulation. They are options used by some for years, but those beekeepers may also be the least likely to answer any online poll.

 

[itma]

Useful analysis, alanf, but I think there's a still simpler conclusion.


Of this forum's users voting in that poll, very nearly two thirds use the combination of open-OMF and no top venting. And of those 2/3, just over 2/3 of them use top insulation.

 

[alldigging]

Useful analysis, alanf, but I think there's a still simpler conclusion.


Of this forum's users voting in that poll, very nearly two thirds use the combination of open-OMF and no top venting. And of those 2/3, just over 2/3 of them use top insulation.

Are there any stats on whether more bees survive with insulation than without?

It'll be the association's 'getting the bees ready for winter' talk next week.

 

[m100]

It'll be the association's 'getting the bees ready for winter' talk next week.

Next week? We had ours weeks ago!

 

[drstitson]

aren't associations wonderful - thoughts to winter prep should begin before last supers removed!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

aren't associations wonderful - thoughts to winter prep should begin before last supers removed!

Ah but defining 'winter' in my neck of the woods is always a moot point

 

[m100]

"Don't inspect a hive until you are comfortable wearing just a t-shirt and shorts outside"

...so that'll be mid January, a foot of snow on the ground and a max daytime temp of -15 deg C

I think I was still seeing nectar from balsam coming into a hive in late November last year.

 

[drstitson]

but my point was that winter prep starts when winter bee making starts.

 

[alanf]

Are there any stats on whether more bees survive with insulation than without?

An interesting question. I've not seen any definitive 'side by side' studies on survival alone, anyone else? Looking at a longer list of criteria, spring build up and eventual honey yield are also potential measures of how successful variations are.

Without wanting to start a poly vs wood debate, there are numbers that suggest larger commercial operators get higher yields out of poly hives, such as the ITLD posting on this thread. The numbers are going to be specific to the circumstances at the time on migratory heather crops but there's a fair amount of evidence that colonies in open mesh floor polys have as good or higher honey yields than those in solid wooden floors. For net survival rates, the efficiency of stores use is going to be one factor, but disease rates in different hive set ups and other factors we can only guess at could be important too.

Whatever numbers you choose to measure, how close is a wooden hive with open OMF and top insulation to a full poly outfit? Or is it basically still acting like a wooden box? Any study with a large sample size would have to use 'off the shelf' hives to be reproducible. With so many detail variants of what and how insulation is applied it's unlikely that there will ever be clear answers for after sale modifications. If we're looking for results that could be relevant to the typical beekeeper on this forum* perhaps a poll is in order. The questions might need some thought and the timing should probably be after winter losses are assessed.

* Typical might not be the best term given that we're covering everything from one of the largest operators in the UK to the beginner with a single nuc.

 

[drstitson]

the point is that top insulation (definitely without matchsticks) reduces condensation above the cluster rather than total heat loss. there will still be significant heat loss through the walls BUT the bees will be drier.

a poly hive (if roof thick enough), deals with both issues.