Bees swarmed whilst doing shook swarm - what did I do wrong?

[Langstroth]

From what I can gather, and this is said in the kindest possible terms and with no malice intended, that the whole operation is a balls up, pure and simple. You have not performed a shook swarm, an artificial swarm or made a split or nuc. What you have done is get all the bees that were inside the origional boxes, shaken them all into a box under a queen excluder and then put the whole lot back together again. If you wanted to make increase, how did you think that you would achieve it by doing what you did?

If they were serious about making queen cells why did you not do a normal artifical swarm - increase made and swarm control completed in one go. Or give the queen another brood box ontop of the origional and let her move up and then simply remove the box and put in an bought queen, or why not make up a nuc with the best queen cell and give the origional hive some foundation to draw. To be honest the best thing you can do now is to leave them alone for at least 3 days, preferably 4 and then go and have a look for the queen, find her or at least the box in which she is laying (or not)and at least you will know where you stand. Best of luck and let us know how you get on.

 

[ksjs]

If they have swarmed there must be a capped queen cell (if queen unclipped) otherwise they are likely to have lost her and returned in most cases to the hive. What state is the queen cell now? Has anything hatched from it or is it still capped -this might be the supercedure cell you mention that looked like it had hatched. I am begining to think that if they are on the point of swarming any manipulation tips them over the edge.

Do you have a queen in your hive that you tipped the bees into? Are there any queen cells still present - if so you might end up with further cast swarms. If no queen cells and you are not certain about whether you have a queen you will need to put in a test frame - a frame of brood with uncapped larvae that, if queenless, the bees can start making queen cells from. If they make queen cells then you are queenless - if they don't you might have a virgin queen. You will need to wait a few weeks for evidence of a virgin queen having mated (hopefully) and laid eggs. The likelihood is that if they did swarm, they took the queen with them and left a hatched virgin queen.
!

No capped QC - see photo and read my post. And yes, queen unclipped.

 

[ksjs]

If you wanted increase why did you try to put all the bees into 1 hive?

To put the queen together with flying bees and fresh foundation / space and nurse bees with brood, effectively 2 colonies stacked one on top of the other.

 

[ksjs]

Commiserations ksjs.

I think mostly what you did was OK in terms of a shook swarm, although as you can see, it is not what most would do in your circumstances. If you are asking if there is anything you could do next time to stop them absconding, then there are a couple.

I guess the question is did they just abscond or were they about to swarm anyway?

It would have been worth confining the queen while you did the manipulation to protect her and to help them settle around her. You could also have temporarily put in a frame of unsealed brood in with the foundation - that always encourages them to stay. You could have done the manipulation late in the day - it makes them less flighty when it is nearly their bedtime. ( Some people will argue with this last one as of course there will be more bees to handle... ) Just my opinion. Total respect for asking for feedback so that you are in a better position to prevent it next time.

Cheers for a more constructive post. Couldn't confine the queen as couldn't find her. OK, that's possibly a lazy position but I assumed that I could proceed without seeing her hence how I chose to manipulate hive.

They literally swarmed at the very end of the manipulation (or at least that's when I spotted them); I had placed 2 frames of brood in bottom BB with the rest being stores and foundation. They left whilst the original BB was set aside and I was shaking frames into new BB (I believe).

 

[ksjs]

BUT we are in the middle of nowhere (as could be the OP). She would have been clipped.

Not quite the middle of nowhere. Have now located swarm (I assume they're mine due to timing and location) but irretrievable and thankfully well out of the way high up a beech try in some fields.

 

[ksjs]

To answer the post, you don't know that that was your swarm and will probably never know unless you find eggs and brood in the next week. I think you have your wires crossed on swarm control and increasing your stock but what you did was ok. Now you need patience and let them settle down. You may have an old queen in the shook brood box. If not the you have no way of getting one without adding eggs from the top brood box. I will tell you what I would do in your situation and you may take that advice or not. I would recombine the hive by removing the QE. Then I would take a frame out with a good queen cell on and a couple of frames with brood and one of stores and put all these in a nuc. Leave them to see what happens. I would then shuffle the old bb around so that you fill the spaces with new foundation and take off the new bb again leaving your old hive with or without a queen but with the remains of everything else. They will make queen cells if they have to. You will know when there are no eggs. I would then let them get on with that too.
I would see how that hive builds up and consider splitting later if you want to increase further. But be patient. Let both hives build up numbers. I think this is your first year so get used to handling them and don't worry too much if they swarm. You may or may not catch them. You have to build your confidence and get to know what your bees are trying to tell you. Do that through weekly checks and be discouraged from opening them without a good reason. If you are for example checking for eggs, once you have found them close them up again.
Hope this helps
E

Cheers, useful post. Hand kind of concluded, having now seen swarm, that I'd reduce hive size and let them take it from there. Like the idea of a nuc as still keen to make increase but do wonder about numbers of foragers and nurse bees to care for 10 frames of brood?

 

[ksjs]

If you wanted to make increase, how did you think that you would achieve it by doing what you did?

If they were serious about making queen cells why did you not do a normal artifical swarm - increase made and swarm control completed in one go. Or give the queen another brood box ontop of the origional and let her move up and then simply remove the box and put in an bought queen, or why not make up a nuc with the best queen cell and give the origional hive some foundation to draw. To be honest the best thing you can do now is to leave them alone for at least 3 days, preferably 4 and then go and have a look for the queen, find her or at least the box in which she is laying (or not)and at least you will know where you stand. Best of luck and let us know how you get on.

No offence taken. I don't see how this wasn't a shook swarm - take all bees and shake them into new BB. That's what I did.

The manipulation was designed to separate queen and flying bees from brood and nurse bees. That's what an artificial swarm seeks to achieve albeit via a different mechanism. What I did, was almost as per the exact description of Swarm control without finding queen in the Haynes Bee Manual and as per this post: http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=17730

The method is 'irrelevant' anyway, they swarmed / absconded because, I believe, they were annoyed at a 2nd manipulation in less than 24 hours. They only had 1 proper queen cell, it was very young.

No A/S as I'd decided to use this method and I felt a single young queen cell didn't constitute significant change. I was still unable to locate queen.

How would I get queen to move up, thought she liked being towards the bottom?

 

[ksjs]

OK, so most take a dim view of what I did even though it seems totally in line with some fairly standard / basic manipulations. Anyway, let's move on to next steps. I'm 99% sure I have no queen though I do wonder what the weird hatched looking thing is?

Main options = leave well alone and see what happens OR reduce hive i.e. remove all the fresh foundation, put all 9 brood frames with 2 frames stores into a single BB and have super beneath this (it has or rather had eggs on Thursday and some stores).

I think latter option is best due to lack of bees. What about QCs, will they produce emergency ones or will they be happy with the sole existing one they have? Should I cull all emergency ones as they won't be as good as the one made for the purpose?

Thanks!

 

[kevrhcfag]

Sorry I'm new aswell to this.

But it seems to me you are saying you don't have a queen?

You had eggs on Thursday but seems doubtful they might have eggs young enough to make QC's.

From a novice perspective I would find out if there is a queen, if you have eggs. If neither then you will have to requeen surely.

You seem to been put through the wringer lately. No doubt our time will come as for us its seemed to have gone far too smoothly given the threads on here.

 

[Langstroth]

I think you are a bit confused as to what constitutes a shook swarm. I got the following by typing in 'description of a shook swarm' on google and is what I understand to be a shook swarm.

Background
It is now a generally accepted fact that regular changing of brood frames (and combs) helps to inhibit brood diseases, such as Nosema & EFB. Colonies treated to wholesale frame changeout often become the most productive in the colony.

Until recently, frame replacement has been advocated on the basis of one third of the frames every year - ie. a full replacement every three years. However a recent technique, called "Shook Swarm", aims to replace all brood frames in a single operation, thus removing all potentially diseased equipment at a stroke and minimising disease transfer (a perceived disadvantage of the "Bailey Comb Change", which is the alternative method of complete brood frame replacement).

Timing and Suitability

This technique should only be carried out on strong colonies capable of enduring the stress it undoubtedly creates. It should be carried out as early as possible in the season, but certainly not later than July. Ideally, a good nectar flow should have started, but feeding will undoubtedly be needed to help the bees rapidly draw out the new comb.

The Method

You will need the following equipment :-

A clean brood chamber, containing new frames of foundation
A queen excluder, crown board and floor ( all clean).
Contact feeder with heavy syrup.

Move the existing hive to one side and assemble the new hive in its place, with the queen excluder between the floor and the brood box.
Take out the centre 4 frames from the new hive and place to one side.
Find and catch the queen in the old hive and confine her temporarily to a queen cage or other suitable receptacle.
You must now transfer the bees from the old hive to the new one. This is done by taking each frame in turn and shaking it into the space left by the 4 missing frames in the centre of the new hive. Any reluctant bees can be gently brushed off. Once all the old frames have been cleared of bees, shake or brush all the bees remaining in the brood box into the new hive.
Remove the queen from the container and place her in the centre of the new hive.
Carefully replace the 4 missing new frames in the new hive.
Fit the crown board
Feed with heavy sugar syrup - ideally using a contact feeder on the crown board
Apart from regular feeding, do not disturb for about one week, at which point, brood should be present. Once there is brood on the comb, the queen excluder can be removed. Continue to feed, unless there is a good nectar flow, until all combs are drawn out.

Possible Disadvantages of Shook Swarm Technique

If queen is lost, or damaged in the process, then, because there are is no brood present, the colony will be lost. The queen excluder must initially be used below the brood box to prevent the queen absconding.

References :- Fact Sheet 16, National Bee Unit, South West Region by Richard Ball

Yes you have seperated the Queen from the rest of the brood but the bees are still all in the same set of boxes. You have not done a shook swarm. As to your question about getting the queen to move up into another box, what I do is take half the brood and store and stack it directly ontop of the remaining brood and stores in the centre of the brood box, filling with foundation or drawn comb on the outside, allowing the bees to expand on both levels. If the colony is strong enough to do this then once both brood boxes are fairly well drawn and have brood then its easy to put a queen excluder between the two boxes wait 4 days and check each box for eggs. The box with no eggs has no queen. Place to the side and shake in bees if nessesary then add a bought in queen. If you are splitting one hive why go through the hassle of trying to rear a queen when you can get one for £30 and she will begin to lay almost as soon as they let her out of the cage.

Honestly, I have done some silly things with bees too and it sounds to me that what you have done is mix and match bits of several different operations into your manipulation.

What I have found is that to make sustainable increase, the colonies from which you are taking the key elements of brood and stores are strong enough to bear the strain of the sacrafice. As to the fact that they swarmed, I honestly dont think you should believe the bees swarmed because of you having a rumage round within 24 hrs. Bees do not want to leave brood and stores which have taken a massive amount of time and effort to accumulate and head out into the unknown with nothing. I have been making the most of the weather and have been in and out of most of my hives almost all week making up nucs and boosting slow colonies.

 

[ksjs]

Sorry I'm new aswell to this.

But it seems to me you are saying you don't have a queen?

You had eggs on Thursday but seems doubtful they might have eggs young enough to make QC's.

From a novice perspective I would find out if there is a queen, if you have eggs. If neither then you will have to requeen surely.

You seem to been put through the wringer lately. No doubt our time will come as for us its seemed to have gone far too smoothly given the threads on here.

I'm saying they have very likely swarmed and I am very unlikely to have a queen. They had less than 24 hour old eggs on Thursday so if they swarmed Friday then they have eggs young enough to make emergency QC. They also have 1 queen cell well under way.

So no, at this stage, there's a decent chance I won't have to re-queen.

And no not through the wringer, disappointed to have the swarm happen yes but they came through winter well and developed well so I was doing a lot of things right. It's all learning...

 

[ksjs]

Yes you have seperated the Queen from the rest of the brood but the bees are still all in the same set of boxes. You have not done a shook swarm. As to your question about getting the queen to move up into another box, what I do is take half the brood and store and stack it directly ontop of the remaining brood and stores in the centre of the brood box, filling with foundation or drawn comb on the outside, allowing the bees to expand on both levels. If the colony is strong enough to do this then once both brood boxes are fairly well drawn and have brood then its easy to put a queen excluder between the two boxes wait 4 days and check each box for eggs. The box with no eggs has no queen. Place to the side and shake in bees if nessesary then add a bought in queen. If you are splitting one hive why go through the hassle of trying to rear a queen when you can get one for £30 and she will begin to lay almost as soon as they let her out of the cage.

Honestly, I have done some silly things with bees too and it sounds to me that what you have done is mix and match bits of several different operations into your manipulation.

What I have found is that to make sustainable increase, the colonies from which you are taking the key elements of brood and stores are strong enough to bear the strain of the sacrafice. As to the fact that they swarmed, I honestly dont think you should believe the bees swarmed because of you having a rumage round within 24 hrs. Bees do not want to leave brood and stores which have taken a massive amount of time and effort to accumulate and head out into the unknown with nothing. I have been making the most of the weather and have been in and out of most of my hives almost all week making up nucs and boosting slow colonies.

I have done exactly as the method you quote describes. I would have had queen and flying bees in bottom BB (with 1 or 2 frames brood to make HM happy - I think these aren't mentioned above as that version of swarm control is to help with disease control and transferring brood from old colony into new wouldn't help). These would be separated from upper BB by QE, most nurse bees would migrate to upper BB where most brood is. You split 24 hours later and place upper BB on new floor in new location with roof etc. 2 new colonies.

So, given that the bees swarmed during the manipulation (which therefore, regardless of whether I did a proper shook swarm or not, seemed to be a key factor in this) what do you think caused the swarm given that there was only 1 immature QC?

As to why I don't buy a queen, that feels like the easy option and I'm learning more things with what I'm doing.

 

[Langstroth]

Read the method I have posted. In what part does it say to put all the boxes back together? A shook swarm is when the queen and all the bees are totally seperated from the brood, ie by being shaken into a completely new box full of foundation only. By giving the queen brood it is by definition not a swarm. A shook swarms primary use is for disease control/comb changes and I personally have never heard of it being used for making increase as there are so many better and less stressful ways of going about it. In my mind, the manipulation you performed was more along the lines of a bailey comb change rather than a shook swarm.

So you put the open queen cells in one of the boxes in this stack, yes? Can you garentee that there were no other more mature queen cells because the cells pictured could not have hatched in the time frame avaliable. The only way that I could imagine they had swarmed would have been that you missed a queen cell somewhere. I say this because when you did your manipulation you locked your queen, if there was one present, in the bottom brood box with two queen excluders. Therfore the swarm you describe could have left with a virgin, able to negotiate the queen excluder taking with her a small part of the colony. Or, another possibility, as you didn't actually see them leave they might not have been your bees at all.