Aggressive Hives

[youngyoungs]

I have two hives which I acquired at the end of last year, and over wintered successfully. They are sited next to each other but not on the same hive stand. They were both aggressive colonies, stinging my kids in the garden and following me after inspections. So I opted to requeen, allowing them to produce their own queens.

Both queens are now laying well, there are plenty of bees, but they are no better behaved. I have just inspected them, putting on extra layers underneath the newly washed bee suit for protection. I use minimal smoke, have used a water spray, but the moment I remove the super, they run up and down the frames, and 'boil' out of the hive. I've used cover cloths tonight to try to keep them calmer, it does help, but they're not a pleasure to work with. They cover my veil, and followed me well after I'd finished the inspection.

Questions
Everyone talks about requeening changing the mood of a colony. How long does this mood change take, so should I hold tight until the brood from these new queens emerges and see how they are?

Should I requeen again, and if so, was my mistake letting them produce a queen rather than buying one in?

Should I change the position of these hives with two of my other hives to see if hive position is part of the problem?

Any tips gratefully received.

Thanks.

PS I do have other colonies which are positively chilled by comparison.

 

[Ben90]

Well, the new queens are of very closely related genetics (daughters), so what can you expect? You're probably best just buying queens, IMO.

 

[oliver90owner]

Yes, a mistake to allow them to requeen from the same gene line.

I would have changed their positions long ago - to an 'out of the way' apiary.

What you should have done was to raise queen cells in your 'chilled' colonies.

RAB

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

The only solution was to buy new queens in or give the colonies eggs from a gentler colony to raise new queens from

 

[Nige.Coll]

where are they sited ?
in the open or under trees ?
do they get the sun much ?
If shaded does it feel damp ?

 

[steve56616]

Can someone explain to me?
If a hive has been calm and then turns nasty why has it been suggested to re-queen because of a bad genetic trait? Bit confused about this?
I know for a fact the genes wont have changed. Also by rearing a new queen from that colony wont necessarily make the daughter queens aggressive as they may be from good drones if it was a genetic problem.
I just wondered as I re-queened mine early in the year as they got moody, now I wonder if it was bad genes after all and not just another reason after all.

 

[Ben90]

Can someone explain to me?
I know for a fact the genes wont have changed. Also by rearing a new queen from that colony wont necessarily make the daughter queens aggressive as they may be from good drones if it was a genetic problem.

Like you said, may.

Unless you want the kerfuffle of requeening twice if you turn out to be wrong, you may as well just buy a queen in or put a frame of eggs in from a calmer colony.

 

[Tawny Owl]

Aggressiveness is multifactorial (humidity, lack of nectar, disease stress, colony under attack etc).

A colony can change its aggressiveness if these factors change, however the genetics can also change if the queen begins laying eggs fertilised by a different drone.

Best method to minimise this behaviour is either re-queen with eggs from a placid queen or to buy in a queen from someone you trust.

 

[steve56616]

Like you said, may.

Unless you want the kerfuffle of requeening twice if you turn out to be wrong, you may as well just buy a queen in or put a frame of eggs in from a calmer colony.

I understand that Ben and realise it is probably best to do it first time rather than have to re-queen again. However, I still would like to know how a placid hive turning nasty is from a genetic trait?
I have read that daughters can become more aggressive further down the breeding line but why can an original queen change?
My hives were pretty calm last year. even when very large. This spring turned nasty so re-queened. One queen (nasty) was split as didn't want to kill her off and placed in a nuc back in the garden. Hive has built up and been calm since the split was done in March/April. I now wonder if I needed to buy new queens and not just split and move.

 

[youngyoungs]

Thanks all, guess I know my next stage.

Queen rearing in the more relaxed colonies!

How long after providing them with a new queen should I expect their mood to change?

 

[Tawny Owl]

Once the eggs from the new queen emerge and the baddies die off

 

[steve56616]

however the genetics can also change if the queen begins laying eggs fertilised by a different drone.

QUOTE]

The genetics of the offspring yes but not the queen herself

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

The genetics of the offspring yes but not the queen herself

but the offspring's genes will have some from the queen and the drone.

 

[steve56616]

but the offspring's genes will have some from the queen and the drone.

Yes I know this as I just said but still doesn't explain what I asked

 

[tudorcd]

Our bee breeders have talked about workers kinships or clans. Does this perhaps cause a change in the mood of the hive as nasty ones preserve kin of the same ilk ?

 

[bontbee]

This thread reminds me of a question I have asked of many beekeepers and, in typical, delightful, beekeeperish fashion, have had conflicting answers - even from the same person!!

Perhaps, with the combined and extensive knowledge that is evident on this forum, I may get a definitive answer to this question...

Are the sperm from however many drones a queen mates with stored in separate "packets" in the spermatheca, or are they all mixed together? Or somewhere between the two???



thanks in anticipation

 

[enrico]

It isn't necessarily genetic Steve and in my experience rarely is. I have never bought a queen in other than with the odd nuc over the years. I always requeen from my stock which are generally placid but occasionally get feisty, even aggressive.
There are many factors to take into account. Some are only nasty when disturbed but you van walk next to them with no problem. Some will have followers after having been disturbed. Some are just downright nasty. They will sting and 100 yards. To be fair I have never had downright nasty. I have had really nasty but having left them for a few weeks they have always returned to better ways. I often think that it is the way hives are approached and handled. If you rip the roof off without warning some hives will spring into action, but not all. If you are used to docile bees and suddenly get a defensive hive then a change of your own practice can help no end.
I would not put up with downright nasty bees for long. But I will persevere with those that I think may revert to better days and generally they do.
We have off days, we can sulk for a week, we can be cross for a month. Why can't bees!
But that's just what I think with no facts or biological knowledge to back me up just a feeling for what goes on in my hives!
E

 

[madasafish]

I can agree with Enrico. I had a swarm which when hived was occasionally nasty in its first year. Two years later and the same queen, it ain't nasty - but the bees stiil run on the combs...

 

[drex]

Are the sperm from however many drones a queen mates with stored in separate "packets" in the spermatheca, or are they all mixed together? Or somewhere between the two???

[/QUOTE]
Cannot think where, but have read it is all mixed. Makes sense from the anatomy, and the fact we see workers with different coloration etc all at the same time

 

[steve56616]

It isn't necessarily genetic Steve and in my experience rarely is. I have never bought a queen in other than with the odd nuc over the years. I always requeen from my stock which are generally placid but occasionally get feisty, even aggressive.
There are many factors to take into account. Some are only nasty when disturbed but you van walk next to them with no problem. Some will have followers after having been disturbed. Some are just downright nasty. They will sting and 100 yards. To be fair I have never had downright nasty. I have had really nasty but having left them for a few weeks they have always returned to better ways. I often think that it is the way hives are approached and handled. If you rip the roof off without warning some hives will spring into action, but not all. If you are used to docile bees and suddenly get a defensive hive then a change of your own practice can help no end.
I would not put up with downright nasty bees for long. But I will persevere with those that I think may revert to better days and generally they do.
We have off days, we can sulk for a week, we can be cross for a month. Why can't bees!
But that's just what I think with no facts or biological knowledge to back me up just a feeling for what goes on in my hives!
E

Thanks Enrico, Just what I thought really. l now realise I bought mated queens in haste thinking about it.
It is interesting trying to find out the reason for a change in behaviour. Maybe hormones from an aging queen is a possibility with some. Only after giving it some thought and reading threads on re-queening made me think that changing the queen cant be the only way