Advice on DN4 top bars

[Samurailord]

Hi all

I have just placed an order for some DN4 frames, but the supplier has just been in touch to tell me that they are out of first quality T1 top bars, and have offered me seconds at 15% discount.

Altenatively I can have the wider T2's for the same price.

As a newbie I am now confused - can someone please let me know whether T1 or T2 tops are best, and whether seconds are good enough?

The supplier is National Bee Supplies, if that makes any difference

Help!

Andy

 

[Suzi Q]

I only buy seconds, too expensive for me to buy 1st quality. Not had a problem so far with seconds. Sounds as though you are being offered DN5, same as DN4 except for the wider topbar? Should be OK, some beekeepers think they are better in terms of the bees not making so much brace comb between frames.

 

[Dadnlad]

I only buy seconds, too expensive for me to buy 1st quality. Not had a problem so far with seconds

Same here

DN4, DN5, SN4 and SN5 have Hoffman side bars so are self spacing
DN2, DN5, SN2 and SN5 have slightly wider top bars

For me there's not enough gain in paying for 1st over 2nd quality frames

 

[itma]

Hi all

I have just placed an order for some DN4 frames, but the supplier has just been in touch to tell me that they are out of first quality T1 top bars, and have offered me seconds at 15% discount.

Altenatively I can have the wider T2's for the same price.

As a newbie I am now confused - can someone please let me know whether T1 or T2 tops are best, and whether seconds are good enough?

The supplier is National Bee Supplies, if that makes any difference

Help!

Andy

"T1" & "T2" are their own codes, not (AFAIK) part of the standard coding.

However, as correctly mentioned above, DN5's are exactly the same as DN4's except for having a slightly wider topbar. (That topbar is also used on 14x12 brood frames, Manley super frames and SN5 supers, oh and DN2 and SN2 --- don't worry about the details but just note that a wide topbar is one of the options as to how the National frame family can be put together.)

Back to DN4's versus 5's. On their hoffmans the gap between topbars is 12mm (1.5 beespaces) with the narrow topbar (4) compared to 8mm (1 beespace) when the wider bars (5) are used.
This should lead to less wild/brace comb between the wider topbars - but my bees (on 14x12) seem not to have read that part of the book.

In practice, you don't seem to get more wild/brace comb when mixing the two bars (giving 1.25 beespaces gap between the bars!)


I'd say the wider bars are better - but they aren't actually stronger. The weak point is the 'neck' where the sidebar fits into the topbar - and the neck is the same size whatever the bar width! Whether wider bars are worth paying extra for is a moot point.


Incidentally, my frames are almost all Thornes (sale) 'seconds' - under half the price of primes.
No personal experience of NBS seconds, though their primes are reputed to be pretty good compared to other primes.

 

[Swarm]

However, if you are buying your frames from NBS you will be very pleased with them. Accept the 15% discount (bite his hand off) or get the wider top bars which are better. If it were me, I'd see if you can strike a deal of some sort and get DN5's as the bottom bars on NBS DN5's are stepped like Manley bottom bars and help considerably to prevent excess wax build up at the bottom of each frame.
Lovely, robust frames. You get what you pay for.

 

[itma]

... see if you can strike a deal of some sort and get DN5's as the bottom bars on NBS DN5's are stepped like Manley bottom bars and help considerably to prevent excess wax build up at the bottom of each frame.

I gather their 14x12's similarly have the wide bottom bars.

The nice point is that the NBS sidebars are 'waisted' to the same width as those (standard for their type) wide bottom bars. So that also makes the beespace correct between the lower part of the sidebars of adjacent hoffman frames.
Thornes have a different idea. Sadly.

 

[Swarm]

Yes, much better frames.

 

[REDWOOD]

good bit of info here
http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/bsframedesignations.html

 

[Samurailord]

Thanks for all the replies - I have gone for the seconds and so should be happily building my frames when they arrive sometime nest week.

Andy

 

[Samurailord]

Just wanted to post and say how great the service I have had from NBS has been.

Quick communication when something I ordered was out of stock, suggestions of alternatives and best of all, delivery in less than 24 hours after i confirmed my preference for a replacement.

The stuff looks good - cant really see why the top bars are seconds apart from a blue-ish sheen on them.

We are always quick to complain when things go wrong, so I wanted to post some praise!

I will definitely be ordereing from them again.

Andy

 

[Swarm]

Good to hear, I knew you'd be pleased with them. I bought a fair quantity of the DN5's a couple of years back and would get all my brood frames from NBS if I could afford to.