How Long to wait for some brood?

[JohnRoss]

Hi All, I performed an AS at the end of July, nearly six weeks ago. At the time I also lost the Queen in the Original hive. A week ago I found larvey in the Original hive but the Swarm colony has not produced any yet. The Queen hatched three weeks ago now. The bees are covering about 7 frames at the moment, down from 10. I was wondering how long I should give them before giving up on the Queen? Also if the Queen doesn't lay soon is there any point in re-uniting them with the other hive given they are all old bees now anyway?

 

[drstitson]

so these are the flyers? maybe wait til the queen is mated (may take til end of month) and then bank her in a nuc and unite the remainder back to parent hive.

BTW the "swarm" colony should have had the queen leaving QCs to form in the "parent" hive!!!!!

 

[JohnRoss]

Yes, Both colonies formed new queens with the Queen cells left by the "parent" queen. It is just that one of the new queens has now started laying and the other hasn't.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

The same kind of thing happened to me last month - one virgin Queen in a nuc with a small amount of workers, the other virgin queen in a full brood box and plenty of bees - both queens emerged within 24 hours of each other but the queen in the nuc mated and was laying about 3/4 weeks before the other.
i was told that the queen in the smaller colony would have been more eager to mate to build up her retinue

 

[greatbritishhoney]

is there any point in re-uniting them with the other hive given they are all old bees now anyway?

Yes, because those old bees are the foragers - they may bring in that little extra bit of nectar / water to add to the general good.
They could also eat that little extra bit of honey if the weather is bad though

 

[drstitson]

one of the less well known benefits of mating hives (aside from convenience, use of few bees, cost etc etc) is that queens mate faster apparently. i suppose there is less for her to do indoors (less bees or comb to police) so it's out every day for "bunga bunga".

 

[gingerbees]

we had two new queens in our hives. 1 took three weeks to start laying the other took 5 but both ok now, i guess you just need to wait and hope !

 

[drstitson]

i know in this case the use of "old" bees is correct as we are referring to the foragers in the "swarm" hive but don't forget that in bee terms chronological and physiological age are not the same - old bees that haven't nursed brood are still "young" - just think about winter bees!!!!

 

[greatbritishhoney]

, i guess you just need to wait and hope !

I don't know what the weather is like where you are, but it's distinctly cold and damp here - chances of a successful mating flight would be very low. If it was me, I would be thinking about uniting some time soon (or at least getting prepared for the possibility).

 

[gingerbees]

weather was the same here, but HM managed to get out and mate, uniting is always an option but is there a rush ? could leave it two more weeks and unite results would be the same as if it was done now surely ?

 

[greatbritishhoney]

weather was the same here, but HM managed to get out and mate, uniting is always an option but is there a rush ? could leave it two more weeks and unite results would be the same as if it was done now surely ?

I agree - no massive rush. Just suggesting thinking about it and getting prepared. There's nothing worse than getting to the point of no return and finding that you haven't got all the necessary kit

 

[gingerbees]

totaly agree , each time we went to look we had everything ready to go just incase, infact on the last inspection we were thinking we would have to do it, then................capped brood woohoo

 

[JohnRoss]

It is actually quite warm but cloudy here today. 18C.

If I do re-unite do I have to find the Virgin Queen? I have been told that the mated queen will be stronger and will dispatch her but I don't fully trust that. Another concern I have is that the numbers in the swarm hive are falling. Down from 10 frames to seven. Given another 2 weeks the hive will probably be down to 4 or 5 frames. Even if the Queen does start laying at that point will there be enough time for them to build up for the winter?

 

[greatbritishhoney]

Definitely find and remove the virgin queen before you unite. Otherwise you may well end up with two dead or damaged queens.

I share your concerns about whether your current virgin queen will have enough time to mate and produce sufficient brood for winter. It could get significantly colder anytime from now on.
However, I don't have a great deal of experience of taking smaller colonies through winter, so perhaps someone more experienced would offer better advice.

 

[YorkshireBees]

I was once told by an experienced beekeeper that even newly mated queens sometimes hold off laying until all previous brood has hatched out!
Obviously in a split the hive with less brood or older brood would come in to lay faster than a parent colony.

I have had queens take up to 6-7 weeks before starting to lay this year and have talked to people at my association that have also had to wait long periods!

 

[mignon]

:
......so it's out every day for "bunga bunga".

Really Dr Stitson, I don't know what those Italian Queens get up to, but here in Blighty I rather like to think it's a little light courtship, some tentative flirting followed by a long and meaningful relationship. Bunga bunga, Oh my I can't believe it...ha ha
Thank you Dr S. you do make me laugh

 

[drstitson]

what a romantic image! doesn't really fit with tearing off of manhoods etc etc.

even bunga bunga participants get to leave live and intact grasping a wad of notes, a rolex or two and the keys to a new sports car or flat.

drones have a raw deal.

 

[mignon]

oh boy are you telling me I shouldn't be tearing off their manhoods? Maybe that's why I never leave the party with a rolex or a diamond ring. Corr this here beekeeping teaches me something new every day

 

[JohnRoss]

I read in the Ted Hooper book that after 3-4 weeks the queen becomes incapable of mating. I just looked through by notes and saw that this queen emerged on the 11th of August which was 4 weeks yesterday. Does that mean I am already bunched?

 

[drstitson]

don't take what's in the books as gospel - the bees certainly don't (they can't).

this year is a good example. there are many posts about queens which take 4-6 weeks (or more) to get mated and start laying after emerging.