X3 Test frames without QC's- What next?

[Eyeman]

After a standard Wally Shaw A/S the hive on the new site shows no BIAS and no QC's on test frame. Behaviour is no different from some other hives. No fanning on comb.
Time line
June 20th- A/S Wally Shaw: Q & Brood to new site
June 26th- Q found and moved to old site and QC's removed- No QC's at new site
NEW SITE
July 1st- New site x1 open QC left. All others removed
July 18th- No BIAS
July 25th- No BIAS - Test frame inserted
Aug 3rd- No QC's on T-frame and no BIAS other frames
Aug 8th - No BIAS other frames or QC's - Test frame inserted
Aug 15th- No QC's on T-frame- T-frame inserted
Aug 18th- No QC's on T-frame and no BIAS on other frames

By my calculations the open QC on the 1st July should have emerged around the 8th - 10th July so she has had 39-41 days to get mated and start laying.
Any suggestions?
Would you have done anything different?
Colony is still strong.
Should I give them another week ?
I was planning on assuming Q-less and uniting with a Q-right 3 Frame nuc next week.

 

[Foxylad]

Difficult to say without inspecting in person.

Are they polished cells? Do they seem calm? Are they bringing in pollen, making room for the q to lay? These are usual signs of a q coming into lay.

If you've a 3 framed nuc i would, at this time of year combine. Going into winter with a stronger hive is better than waiting on two weaker colonies.

 

[Eyeman]

Are they polished cells? Do they seem calm? Are they bringing in pollen, making room for the q to lay? These are usual signs of a q coming into lay.

It's looked like they have been expecting a queen to come in to lay for nearly a month! With all the usual signs.
I had a similar colony without BIAS which were the calmest bees on-the-comb I'd seen for ages- a test frame produced QC's- so the signs aren't always reliable.
Thanks for you comment.

 

[oliver90owner]

Would you have done anything different?

Yes.

I would have left two queen cells.
I would not have interfered for three weeks after expected emergence apart from a likely check that one or both queen cells had been opened as expected.
I would be noting the mating opportunities as time progressed, from about 5 days after emergence.
If the above observations suggested I would be expecting a drone laying queen situation, I would be searching her out and changing her for another (preferably laying) queen, unless she looked as though she was being prepared for laying.
I would not rely on any one 'sign'. One weighs up all the evidence and then make a decision based on those obervations and the clear facts.

Clear facts are that she is not yet laying, unless laying on the test frame, but is present.

Your call.

 

[MuswellMetro]

have you tried feeding syrup? they could be starving

 

[Eyeman]

I would have left two queen cells.
I would not have interfered for three weeks after expected emergence apart from a likely check that one or both queen cells had been opened as expected.
I would be noting the mating opportunities as time progressed, from about 5 days after emergence.
If the above observations suggested I would be expecting a drone laying queen situation, I would be searching her out and changing her for another (preferably laying) queen, unless she looked as though she was being prepared for laying.
I would not rely on any one 'sign'. One weighs up all the evidence and then make a decision based on those obervations and the clear facts.

Clear facts are that she is not yet laying, unless laying on the test frame, but is present.

I agree I did check them too early. Normally give them 3 weeks from date of emergence. If I upset her mating flights then I should be seeing some signs of a DLQ by now?
All the other checks were in relation to the test frames .
Definitely no eggs or young larvae when checking the test frames- also checked the other frames and no eggs/larvae except larvae and sealed brood on test frame.
Plenty of stores and nectar coming in so no risk of starving.
Will be checking them again in a few days so will let you know what I find.
Thanks

 

[Pete D]

This hive is full of old bees, except the brood from the test frames.
If you unite them you are just giving another hive a load of old bees to feed.

If you need to save the hive / colony you could give it a few frames of sealed brood and a laying queen.

If you don't need it, write it off.

Good luck

 

[Eyeman]

This hive is full of old bees, except the brood from the test frames.
If you unite them you are just giving another hive a load of old bees to feed.

Good point
The original hive was a double national brood so this is still a double national- was well populated last week.
They should provide a foraging force all be it with a short life.
The plan was if still no sign of a laying queen then unite with a 3 frame nuc and over winter as a single national.

 

[beeno]

Good point
The original hive was a double national brood so this is still a double national- was well populated last week.
They should provide a foraging force all be it with a short life.
The plan was if still no sign of a laying queen then unite with a 3 frame nuc and over winter as a single national.

Hi Eyeman,
I don't think you have done anything wrong apart from probably waiting too long. You must have a queen in there as otherwise you would have had laying workers by now. Sorry, you will have to find her before uniting, but you know that

 

[Eyeman]

I don't think you have done anything wrong apart from probably waiting too long. You must have a queen in there as otherwise you would have had laying workers by now. Sorry, you will have to find her before uniting, but you know that

Thanks for you helpful comment beeno.
My plan to prevent laying workers is to alway put a test frame in if there has been no signs the hive is queen right after 3-4 weeks post her expected emergence date.
I think that I haven't got laying workers because of the brood Ive put in rather than there is a queen present.
Would you agree?

 

[oliver90owner]

rather than there is a queen present.

So what does your 3x test frame saga tell you? They each, and collectively, indicate that there is a queen in there.

 

[Pete D]

rather than there is a queen present.

So what does your 3x test frame saga tell you? They each, and collectively, indicate that there is a queen in there.

It tells me that she needs finding PDQ and squishing.

 

[Eyeman]

The reply was that laying workers can be prevented by introducing brood.
I agree all the signs suggest a queen is present - I just think it unusual she hasn't started laying, not even a drone layer!

 

[Finman]

After a standard Wally Shaw A/S the hive on the new site shows no BIAS and no QC's on test frame. Behaviour is no different from some other hives. No fanning on comb.
Time line
June 20th- A/S Wally Shaw: Q & Brood to new site
June 26th- Q found and moved to old site and QC's removed- No QC's at new site
NEW SITE
July 1st- New site x1 open QC left. All others removed
July 18th- No BIAS
July 25th- No BIAS - Test frame inserted
Aug 3rd- No QC's on T-frame and no BIAS other frames
Aug 8th - No BIAS other frames or QC's - Test frame inserted
Aug 15th- No QC's on T-frame- T-frame inserted
Aug 18th- No QC's on T-frame and no BIAS on other frames

By my calculations the open QC on the 1st July should have emerged around the 8th - 10th July so she has had 39-41 days to get mated and start laying.
Any suggestions?
Would you have done anything different?
Colony is still strong.
Should I give them another week ?
I was planning on assuming Q-less and uniting with a Q-right 3 Frame nuc next week.

Buy a mated Queen.

.

 

[Eyeman]

Buy a mated Queen.

I've got loads of mated queens,
Didn't want to put her in a hive that wasn't queenless.
The test frames are telling me there is a queen in the hive.
Will be having another look tomorrow

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

shakeout in a trashy area well away from the hive, replace hive in original location and hope flyers return sans queen

Last time I did it, found queen with a small cluster of attendants where I'd shaken them out after the rest had flown home

 

[Finman]

Didn't want to put her in a hive that wasn't queenless.

That is smart...

You may sieve the Queen off.

Put an exluder on entrance.
Shake all bees in front of the hive.
Bees go in and...

 

[oliver90owner]

This type of thread must baffle new beeks!

Here we have a beek, of at least 7 years, asking advice/comments on a simple problem/procedure. First (initial post) he is going to 'assume' Q- and unite, yet now he claims he knows(or knew) there is a queen in there.

Time to finish the thread and leave it up to him. He might do well to read post #4, I reckon. Another week has gone by while this thread has been running.

She may well be laying when he looks tomorrow. Then a wait to see if she is a drone layer.

If I had 'loads of mated Queens' available, one would have been in there before now. Another three weeks for new brood, so they are not going to do much this year (yes, I know he has a nuc available).

 

[Eyeman]

I don't think you have done anything wrong apart from probably waiting too long.

It tells me that she needs finding PDQ and squishing.

Well, took another look last week and Eggs,young larvae on 4 frames. She must have started laying shortly after my last inspection the week before.
This week BIAS on 6 frames and as you can see worker brood and a good pattern.
She took from emergence approx 6+ weeks to start laying.
Will believe my gut instinct in future- no QC's on test frame then she's in there somewhere.