Winter beneath the crown board.

[Nordicul]

Hi All,

Appealing to my voyeuristic nature ( I have my bees....not the neighbours...under 24 hr camera watch) my two hives have polycarbonate crown boards enabling me to peep in on their Winter progress.

While there were a lot of posts on the construction of these and on their pros and cons, feed holes and risk of condensation ( I have the feed hole, presently closed off and with 100 mm silver backed king span on top and inside a super). I saw very few posts on what might be revealed by having this window into the bees Winter world.

I wish to be able "read" my bees better ..." Let the bees tell you" Bro Adam, So any advice and pointers on what to watch for as Winter progresses would be welcome. My intention is only to look in when I weigh them , monthly?

I can see from my first view that you can make out the size of the brood nest/cluster and its location. I could also with a torch see where they were in the seams and what stores were in the upper frames.
There is probably much more to be read, but as I said I've much to learn.

The first photo is taken with the Iphone yesterday temp about 12 C.



The next two taken approx same time are with a FLIR attachment to the camera. It takes a regular and infra red photo and superimposes them...not perfect overlay but it gives a spectacular view of the brood nest/cluster and I feel sure it will be great tool for monitoring their progress.




Nordicul

 

[Erichalfbee]

I use my FLIR under the omf. No need to take the top off

 

[ShinySideUp]

TBH, it's best to leave the bees alone at this time of year, even with a perspex roof and the colony does look a little thin on the ground (I appreciate you have acknowledged this).

 

[alfazer]

The camera work looks interesting but to be honest at this stage of the year with a weak colony I'd be trying to keep them warm by adding a sheet of insulation (something like 50mm kingspan) on top of the crownboard and not taking the roof off too often in cold weather.

 

[Eyeman]

I look at my insert trays when I do my monthly winter checks. The 5 frame nucs are on varroa monitor boards as well.
Gives a good indication of the size of cluster and activity and if you record the number of seam of debris, their approx length and approx density you can watch the colony shrink and hopefully expand!

 

[SteveG]

I was told so advised to seal top vents with Poly. crown boards.

 

[Amari]

I use my FLIR under the omf. No need to take the top off

What's that? Something akin to up-skirting?

 

[Millet]

What's that? Something akin to up-skirting?

Strange thought's .. are you deprived in any way..

 

[Erichalfbee]

Strange thought's .. are you deprived in any way..

 

[Nordicul]

Hi All,
Just a few points , to be clear.....I'm an amateur, this is my first Winter with bees and I've been trying to do the best I can with them. They were spring Nucs one off which really never developed well and suffered badly from day one with chalk brood. As for Varroa , from the drop level this was not a major problem ,though I did fully treat both hives for 4 weeks Aug-Sept...after which .in one hive the Queen stopped laying for a few weeks. After treating I fed both hives continuously up until they got to 40 lbs stores, and were slow to take more and it was too cold.

I agree with all comments that they are not strong looking, but that's what I have.

As to the Perspex crown board, I may have misunderstood posts on here which seemed to suggest it as a good option giving you an edge by being able to view the bees in the winter without having to open the hive?

The whole point of my post being what might I see through such a clear roof in Winter that would help me understand the state of the colony?

The Perspex is covered with 100mm of silver backed foil its within a super and covered with a telescopic roof, I've not noticed any condensation. Is that still not enough insulation?

I only ever intended having a look beneath it monthly when weighing....Will removing it once a month for a minute or so to look through cause serious heat loss or disruption to the hive?

I thought to, that taking a quick photograph will give me a better comparative guide...not spending too long to get best quality shots . Same for the Flir pics....sorry Amari can't get low enough for that.

Thanks again for all comments.

Nordicul

 

[Madge]

... my two hives have polycarbonate crown boards enabling me to peep in on their Winter progress.

... ( I have the feed hole, presently closed off and with 100 mm silver backed king span on top and inside a super). ...

I wish to be able "read" my bees better ..." ...

Nordicul, If the bees are near the top - and yours are already there - you'll be able to see whether they're still alive or not. That's about it. They barely move when clustered.

I don't think the colony is as weak as some people seem to think. I can see about seven or eight frames of bees. What bothers me though is the size of your feeder hole. It's minute! The idea of feeding fondant to the bees over winter is to have it easily accessible to the bees directly above their heads because, once clustered tightly in really cold weather, they can only move upwards - and with that tiny hole only a few bees will be able to get at it.

Fondant has a tendency to drip - so, maybe that was why you used such a small feeder hole. I would suggest that you enlarge it or drill a few more of that size nearby. And while doing that, perhaps also a few holes in the corners in case the cluster moved to a corner. Your bees will be fine if you quickly open the hive to change the crown boards.

 

[Madge]

...Will removing it once a month for a minute or so to look through cause serious heat loss or disruption to the hive?

No. Go ahead. Have an occasional look. They'll be fine. I have kept bees for nine years now, and I still love seeing them - summer and winter alike.

 

[Millet]

Nordicul, If the bees are near the top - and yours are already there - you'll be able to see whether they're still alive or not. That's about it. They barely move when clustered.

I don't think the colony is as weak as some people seem to think. I can see about seven or eight frames of bees. What bothers me though is the size of your feeder hole. It's minute! The idea of feeding fondant to the bees over winter is to have it easily accessible to the bees directly above their heads because, once clustered tightly in really cold weather, they can only move upwards - and with that tiny hole only a few bees will be able to get at it.

Fondant has a tendency to drip - so, maybe that was why you used such a small feeder hole. I would suggest that you enlarge it or drill a few more of that size nearby. And while doing that, perhaps also a few holes in the corners in case the cluster moved to a corner. Your bees will be fine if you quickly open the hive to change the crown boards.

In this weather i would be panicking if all the bees where at the top like that... not that we see many bees in the picture... a week ago when the weather was a tad warmer my Only Nuc had double the amount of bees up above...

 

[Millet]

Hi All,
Just a few points , to be clear.....I'm an amateur, this is my first Winter with bees and I've been trying to do the best I can with them. They were spring Nucs one off which really never developed well and suffered badly from day one with chalk brood. As for Varroa , from the drop level this was not a major problem ,though I did fully treat both hives for 4 weeks Aug-Sept...after which .in one hive the Queen stopped laying for a few weeks. After treating I fed both hives continuously up until they got to 40 lbs stores, and were slow to take more and it was too cold.

I agree with all comments that they are not strong looking, but that's what I have.

As to the Perspex crown board, I may have misunderstood posts on here which seemed to suggest it as a good option giving you an edge by being able to view the bees in the winter without having to open the hive?

The whole point of my post being what might I see through such a clear roof in Winter that would help me understand the state of the colony?

The Perspex is covered with 100mm of silver backed foil its within a super and covered with a telescopic roof, I've not noticed any condensation. Is that still not enough insulation?

I only ever intended having a look beneath it monthly when weighing....Will removing it once a month for a minute or so to look through cause serious heat loss or disruption to the hive?

I thought to, that taking a quick photograph will give me a better comparative guide...not spending too long to get best quality shots . Same for the Flir pics....sorry Amari can't get low enough for that.

Thanks again for all comments.

Nordicul

You will gain nothing by disrupting the bees at this time of the year..if they have enough stores leave well alone till the end of December and do something else to occupy your mind...if they feel light later on near the new year open them up and stick some nice warm fondant on top of the top bars under a 1.5in eke and crown board of choice back on.. good luck..

 

[Madge]

In this weather i would be panicking if all the bees where at the top like that... not that we see many bees in the picture... a week ago when the weather was a tad warmer my Only Nuc had double the amount of bees up above...

Panic if you wish, Millet - Nordicul needn't join you. His bees will be fine - but I would suggest leaving fondant over their heads as assurance. Don't wait for December - do it now. They can't move sideways when clustered in a really cold snap.

Nordicul, you can cut a hole in your insulation to fit over a fondant tub, or use something flexible like bubble wrap insulation.

 

[alfazer]

I have some clear crown boards and some of them have a feed hole offset from the centre. If you take a look in late winter and see them clustered away from the fondant you can carefully release the edges of the board and turn it through 90-180-270 degrees to position the fondant closer to them.

 

[Nordicul]

Hi Mellifera, Millet and Alfazer

Thanks for your observations and constructive comments.

The hole in Perspex is 20 mm in diameter, they had used that ok to go up into feeder ok , but maybe fondant is a different issue and needs a bigger hole?

Presently the plan was, on the opposite side of the 100mm Kinspan insulation I do have a space carved out, into which fits one of those take away tubs which I was going to fill with fondant then turn it over the hole when needed, ie weight drop. I thought the bees would pile through hole eating into tub of fondant?

I could test their ability to access to it now and see how they use it?

The issue of the cluster being in a non central location I had not considered good tip Alfazer, is this a common occurrence?

Drilling a bigger hole or new corner holes in situ is not a runner as it would likely crack Perspex. It seems I would be better then to do as yourself or Millet suggested and place fondant directly over the frames within an eke

.....Couple of points there should I use it on top of a QE to stop it dripping into frames?
Mellifera says do it now ...Millet in the New Year why the difference of opinion?

Again thanks

Nordicul

 

[Millet]

.....Couple of points there should I use it on top of a QE to stop it dripping into frames?
Mellifera says do it now ...Millet in the New Year why the difference of opinion?

Again thanks

Nordicul

Depending on how you place the fondant it will drip onto the frames through a Queen exlcuder the same as if you did not use one.
Here is a simple video on what to do.. i will be using the eke method this year BUT not with cling film as it is lethal for killing bees.. grease proof paper is a safer option..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmOHzU4NdQc

 

[BeeSpace]

I've got perspex boards on all mine, although I think the feeder holes are a little larger (porter bee escape size, although I can't remember for sure). I have fondant on at present (no QE) and use a similar take-away tub / insulation with cut out arrangement that seems to work well. Since it's my first year though, I have nothing for comparision, to be fair! Now I just need to work out how to get the bees / comb out of the tub when I put a new one on....!

 

[Madge]

Nordicul, don't worry about the hole size if you can't change it. They'll use it.
Put the fondant beside the hole, rather than covering the hole. That way more bees can get into the tub to help themselves.

I've noticed that some clusters tend to stay fixed in one position in the hive over winter. Your bees are already slightly off-centre but they might move back to the feeder hole - who knows. If not, and they're clustered in a corner, then lift the crown board; add a shallow eke; and place the fondant directly on the frames. Cut a few narrow strips in the fondant bag so that it is less likely to drip all over the colony (maybe strips of about a centimetre wide - again, I don't know ...).

I can't make out the construction of your crown board - but it looks as though it has a raised rim. If so, maybe you can just turn the crown board over rather than use an eke.

I have never used a queen excluder below fondant. Other people may have a better idea - but my instinct is that it will just create a hindrance for the bees to get to the fondant, and not really prevent dripping. I think stay with cutting a few narrow slots in the bag or don't cover the cluster completely with the fondant (that's what I've done before).

We all have different opinions. Perhaps I'm over-cautious to suggest adding fondant now - but that's what I tend to do, particularly with the cluster already at the top of the frames. There's no capped honey above their heads - so, they won't be able to reach food if there is a long cold snap unless they have fondant above their heads.

Kitta