Will bees repair damaged frames

[Liam C Ryan]

A second question this Sunday, while de-capping the frames for extraction they were damaged some what , will the bees repair them when they are put back on the hive next year?
Regards
Liam C

 

[oliver90owner]

What do you think, if they are going to use them again?

Of course, the bees will not repair woodwork, and if the comb damage is so severe, they may build comb at funny angles (to that needed, or expected).

 

[chickendave]

If it's just the comb that is damaged yes the bees will repair it I know a few people who keep bees in national hives that only put starter strips in the frames and they don't get comb at funny angles

 

[drstitson]

many bee farmers - ged marshall included - alternate drawn comb with starter strips in supers - every penny counts when it's your livelihood so saving a couple of quid on foundation for every super is a sensible thing to do.

 

[Tom Bick]

Yes they will repair it with no trouble what so ever, I would even go as far as to recommend people to deliberately put a hole in a piece of comb and see how the bees deal with it.

Its sometimes hard for new beekeepers to think that the bees are not able to cope even without foundation.

I am slowly moving away from foundation altogether. I am finding it can be slightly more awkward and less convenient but a great thing to witness.

I can see at times a need for foundation in the bb but not in the supers any more.

 

[MrB]

Of course, the bees will not repair woodwork

Beat me to that one!

 

[psafloyd]

Yes they will repair it with no trouble what so ever, I would even go as far as to recommend people to deliberately put a hole in a piece of comb and see how the bees deal with it.

Its sometimes hard for new beekeepers to think that the bees are not able to cope even without foundation.

I am slowly moving away from foundation altogether. I am finding it can be slightly more awkward and less convenient but a great thing to witness.

I can see at times a need for foundation in the bb but not in the supers any more.

What about extraction, Tom? Is that comb up to the centrifugal forces?

 

[Tom Bick]

Hi Floyed I wire the frames one horizontal wire I have a tangential extractor and this supports the comb even without the wire. I have considered two wires but thinks this is over kill.

All you need is a starter strip and off they go, you have to keep an eye on them but mostly they drawer the frames when they need to with very interesting cell sizes to.

 

[AndreaW]

Its sometimes hard for new beekeepers to think that the bees are not able to cope even without foundation.

I'm now aware how good they are at it! I left two super frames out as recommended by my mentor to leave a gap for apiguard (I know I know should have the super off, going to winter with a super on and this is what she recommended). Anyway they have built a lovely piece of frame size comb attached to the QE - going to have to take it away from them but it is beautiful - they wouldn't let me today - apiguard has them in a stinking mood

 

[Tom Bick]

Watching bees draw foundation is one thing but watching bees draw comb is something else.

 

[Nellie]

What about extraction, Tom? Is that comb up to the centrifugal forces?

More than. I've been foundation less in the supers for the past two years now and as long as you're gentle to start with it's fine. In fact, the only frames that have broken on me recently have been wired foundation.

You do fairly frequently lose the "back wall" between the two sides of comb, but give it back to the bees and they're quite happy to re-use it. If I wasn't "bound" to talk about foundation I'd recommend ignoring it, in the supers at least, to everyone.

 

[Perry]

I used a few super frames with only starter strips and noticed the cells below the strip were bigger than those on the strips. Why? What is the implication of this?

 

[Hombre]

The implication is that your bees make at least two sizes of cells.

Probably drone cells, possibly not.

 

[Tom Bick]

I used a few super frames with only starter strips and noticed the cells below the strip were bigger than those on the strips. Why? What is the implication of this?

Hi Perry the bees know they are storing honey so produce larger cells they think mmmmm bigger cells less wax to draw, less work, less wax more honey.

I have noticed on some super frames comb with even larger cells than drone comb

 

[itma]

... many bee farmers - ged marshall included - alternate drawn comb with starter strips in supers - every penny counts when it's your livelihood so saving a couple of quid on foundation for every super is a sensible thing to do.

... Its sometimes hard for new beekeepers to think that the bees are not able to cope even without foundation.

I am slowly moving away from foundation altogether. I am finding it can be slightly more awkward and less convenient ...

Interesting to learn that there is a "half way house" to a top bar hive!

I'm just a trifle bemused that this would be commercial practice - unless they REALLY want the wax.
Since I've been told that the bees consume more than 5 weights of honey to produce 1 weight of wax, it looks as though the more wax production the bees are required to do, the less honey will be produced for harvesting.
Asking the bees to produce more wax surely only makes sense for a commercial producer if they are trying to produce wax rather than honey.
Or has the newb got something backwards?

 

[Hombre]

You are right of course, but have to balance out the time and cost of fitting foundation. Like a lot of things in commercial beekeeping, it's a trade off.

You can get more profit in several ways. Produce more honey, Reduce your costs. Instead of employing a worker to fit foundation to the frames, employ the bees instead, of course you will be paying them in honey instead of money, so what's the difference on the bottom line?

Think laterally.

 

[Tom Bick]

many bee farmers - ged marshall included - alternate drawn comb with starter strips in supers - every penny counts when it's your livelihood so saving a couple of quid on foundation for every super is a sensible thing to do.

I don’t see how this would work the result will be in my limited experience the drawn combs will get drawn deeper and go out of shape whilst the inserted frames with starter strips may be thin and partly drawn.

It would be better to have a super of just foundationless frames and get the bees to draw them evenly.

I do think that foundationless frames can be employed by commercial beekeepers but I think it will prove to be very labour intensive in the long run.

With foundation the bees build straight flat comb without worrying about it only the odd colony will do its own thing, but with foundationless frames the bees also build good comb within the frames but you have to watch them and the frames at times need a bit of manipulation to keep everything nice and straight.

 

[jakethedog]

Interesting to learn that there is a "half way house" to a top bar hive!

I'm just a trifle bemused that this would be commercial practice - unless they REALLY want the wax.
Since I've been told that the bees consume more than 5 weights of honey to produce 1 weight of wax, it looks as though the more wax production the bees are required to do, the less honey will be produced for harvesting.
Asking the bees to produce more wax surely only makes sense for a commercial producer if they are trying to produce wax rather than honey.
Or has the newb got something backwards?

there is indeed an article (possibly in an old copy of the beekeepers quarterly) written by a Scottish beefarmer who tried a similar practice and came to dismiss the idea due to the loss in honey crop. can't remember all the details but i'll look it out later -unless someone else has a copy to hand.

 

[susbees]

What does a pack of super foundation weigh (the ordinary stuff not the thin and without the wire to be picky...)?

 

[Into the lions den]

many bee farmers - ged marshall included - alternate drawn comb with starter strips in supers - every penny counts when it's your livelihood so saving a couple of quid on foundation for every super is a sensible thing to do.

????

Even today thick super foundation only costs me 22p a sheet and thin super only 14p..................by the time you even lay it out and cut it you have lost any advantage financially. OK I buy big amounts and your prices will probably be a lot higher, but even so, review the figures below.

A poster touched on loss of honey crop..........

The following table was a result of experiments we did back in the 1980s regarding honey yield with various formats on similar calibre colonies. The number shown is the proportion as a percentage of the best outcome (drawn deeps). TS is 'thin super'. All hives in the experiment were wooden Smith hives.

Drawn Deeps 100
Drawn Shallows 77
Foundation Deeps 70
Foundation Shallows 62
TS Shallows 41
TS starters 26
Sections 14

The difference between using 1.40 worth of thin super and say 47p worth of starter strips (discounting labour costs for the fiddly operation involved) is 97p. The loss of crop is 15% of a super of honey as (but actually 37% against thin super full sheets rated as 100%) Yield is only 26% of the crop available using fully drawn deeps.

Standard heather crop average here over manymany years is 44.2lb
thin super 18.4
starters 11.5

so........6.9lb LESS heather honey percolony using starters as opposed to full sheets

at todays rates you SAVE approx 1.94 on foundation
and you LOSE 17.94 in honey at bulk rates ( a lot more at cut comb rates)

Compare it to drawn comb and the sums get scary.

Rocket science?