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Why 14x12 and not Commercial Brood

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brian d 

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Hi, i am a newbee about to put an order in for 2 national hives ,

have been advised at my club to get bigger broods ie commercials

but on this forum you all seem to run 14x12 can you please let me know

if their is any advantages /disavantages.

cheers.
 

victor meldrew 

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The commercial hive is only slightly bigger externally than the national but the frame sizes are incompatable ,ie 16"x10", as against 14"x 8".
The 14"x12" scores by the relative ease of changing bees over from a national .
Most nuclei suppliers do so on national frames !.
An added advantage is that the longer frame allows the brood nest to attain a more natural shape :), according to some people!.
I use 14x12s and find that they suit my system of beekeeping !.

John Wilkinson
 

JCBrum 

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For a new beek, with an eye on the budget, and a requirement for only 2 or 3 hives, you would need a very special reason not to use Mod. National. IMO.

One of those reasons might be that your queen lays very well, and your brood box rapidly runs out of space.

Twenty years ago the answer would have been to add a 'super' on top of the BB to give more laying area.

This became so common that people started using brood frames and boxes which were the same size as a 'brood and a half'. Hence 14x12.

The advantage is that there is only 11 frames to go through on inspection not 22. As well as the shape advantage, of course.

Another reason might be that you wish to use Polystyrene hives, - in that case Langstroth is the current favourite, simply because of production volumes in manufacture, although I think Swienty is now making poly Nats. (available through Wynne-Jones, iirc)

The fact that 14x12 equates with 'brood and a half', should not be confused with 'Double-Brood', which could be done either with two shallow boxes or two deep boxes. (14x12 are Extra Deep)

Double-Brood is favoured by those who want to be able to split the nest so that they can 'lift and tilt' the top box and look in the middle of the nest quickly, without removing any frames. Usually to look for queen cells as a sign of imminent swarming.

Just my resume, as a new beek last year, others may see things differently.

(I did say ymmv, but Fris says I'm not allowed to say that.- forum gestapo strikes again, she's soooo strict ! :) )
(makes yer feel like Max Mosley !)
 
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Tom Bick 

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Hi brian d I have sent you a pm regarding hives its all a matter of personal choice as to what hive you chose you will probably stay with that hive bit like choosing your football team I obviously go with nationals and next year with 14x12 you will fined the hive the length and breath of the country and if you have any problems it will be easier to sort out test frames ect
 

Haughton Honey 

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Lots of Commercial hives.......
If you go for Nationals split all of your colonies early in the season (early April-ish?) to assuage the swarming instinct....Q+ colony with 2 or 3 frames of brood and then combine Q- colonies (2,3 or 4 even perhaps), introduce a new Q in to these combined Q- hives if you can or leave them eggs or a 'C'-shaped lava to raise their own.

Also swap hive positions to 'bleed off' bees from stronger colonies in to weaker ones. This also assuages the swarming instinct.

There's no reason why you won't do well with standard national brood boxes.
 
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Heather 

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I have both- and am looking forward to getting rid of the commercial (bought for me by mistake) The lugs are smaller and I find them difficult to manipulate. Have dropped one before now- with worrying times after as i sought to ensure the queen safe.
I like the 14x12. They are less likely to swarm as they have the space to expand, and they are not too heavy although others assured me they would be.
 

m100 

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Another reason might be that you wish to use Polystyrene hives, - in that case Langstroth is the current favourite, simply because of production volumes in manufacture, although I think Swienty is now making poly Nats. (available through Wynne-Jones, iirc)
Ooh, that sounds good news... looks at their website and finds nothing. I can't recall seeing any announcement in their adverts in Beecraft or BBKA news either.
 

GingerNut 

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Ooh, that sounds good news... looks at their website and finds nothing. I can't recall seeing any announcement in their adverts in Beecraft or BBKA news either.
Wynne Jones are selling poly nationals, catalogue attached :)

Yours Roy
 

MuswellMetro 

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I have both- and am looking forward to getting rid of the commercial (bought for me by mistake) The lugs are smaller and I find them difficult to manipulate. Have dropped one before now- with worrying times after as i sought to ensure the queen safe.
I like the 14x12. They are less likely to swarm as they have the space to expand, and they are not too heavy although others assured me they would be.

Hi

I'vr just taken over my Dads hive this year when he past away
( so really a very new bee) it has a brood box 14x12 which was restocked with a new Nuc of carnolion on DN4 normal brood 14X8 but then the three DN4 extended to 14X12 with thorns 14x12 extenders The later frames all being 14X12

Ok can you do that to any DN4 frame, ie shake off the bees and extended them with thorns extenders to 14x12....just i have an offer of a nuc of bees next year on standard DN4s and want to standardise on 14X12
 

JCBrum 

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Yes you can, but personally I wouldn't bother. ..... not till spring anyway.

Just put them in with the rest of the frames and gradually move them to the outside when the queen has laid up the adjacent 14x12.

The bees will build extra comb underneath anyway, you don't need the extenders.

In the spring and summer the extra comb will be drone brood, which you can cut off after they're capped but before they emerge, and leave for the birds to eat the grubs.

This is because varroa prefer drone brood in which to breed, and it will substantially reduce the level of varroa.

The Defra booklet on IPM / varroa control illustrates how to do it.
 

PaleoPerson 

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The reason that a commercial hive has been recommended is probably due to location. Here in Essex, the Commercial hive is a very common hive to find. I think that others (nationals and some Langstroths) are now becoming more popular, but I think this has more to do with local history more than anything else.
 

beeboybee 

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was over last week and very impressed with the poly nationals think i might invest in one ASAP...... was also surprised just how tough the poly materiel was.
:cheers2:
 

brian d 

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HI JCBRUM,

Thank you for ans about 14x12 , can i ask you as you have these, if a14x12 Brood
area is bigger then a Comm, ie Comm=75,000workers approx,14x12=70,000 workers
or are they about the same, have asked 3supplers who say dont know.
Kind regards brian d
 

Black Comb 

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From "Starting Out in Beekeeping" by Matthew Allan.

Worker cells per brood box

National 50k
Smith 50k
WBC 45k
langstroth 61.4k
Jumbo Lang 78k
Dadant 85k
Commercial 67k

14 x 12 anyone?
 

JCBrum 

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HI JCBRUM,

Thank you for ans about 14x12 , can i ask you as you have these, if a14x12 Brood
area is bigger then a Comm, ie Comm=75,000workers approx,14x12=70,000 workers
or are they about the same, have asked 3supplers who say dont know.
Kind regards brian d
16x10 = 160 sq inches

14x12 = 168 sq inches

There are approximately 26 worker cells to the sq inch

160x26 = 8,320 cells per frame x 11 frames = 91,520 cells

168x26 = 8,736 cells per frame x 11 frames = 96,096 cells

BUT, some of them are covered up by woodwork around the edges.

I say 14x12 is about 7% bigger than 16x10.

The only sure way is to get a frame and count the number of cells across and the number of rows of cells down and multiply them together to get a total.

Does this help ?
 

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