Which type of bees?

[Hachi]

Why would one chose Buckfast bees over Carniolan bees? I’m in eastern Scotland.

I don't know

 

[Mabee]

Why would one chose Buckfast bees over Carniolan bees? I’m in eastern Scotland.

I'm in central Scotland, first year beekeeper and got a nuc through a local association member. My bees are pretty black so close to AMM (not pure obvs), they fly in the wet, cold, wind you name it and are very gentle and have been really productive so would highly recommend them for the Scottish climate. Also if you get a nuc from a local association, you can have more faith in them being a good, strong colony to start with and local strains (IMO).

 

[Murox]

I'm in central Scotland, first year beekeeper and got a nuc through a local association member. My bees are pretty black so close to AMM (not pure obvs), they fly in the wet, cold, wind you name it and are very gentle and have been really productive so would highly recommend them for the Scottish climate. Also if you get a nuc from a local association, you can have more faith in them being a good, strong colony to start with and local strains (IMO).

I'm in the south west so ability to fly in cool windy and wet conditions is vital.
That was my experience when I moved here.

 

[Drover]

Why would one chose Buckfast bees over Carniolan bees? I’m in eastern Scotland.

Choose local bees. They will be mongrels but they will be acclimatised to your region. They will be much better than either Buckfast or Carniolan. Ask local beekeepers if they can help next year.

 

[bingevader]

Choose local bees.

Do you mean local bees, or locally adapted bees?
If a commercial bee farmer in the area has 100s of hives and is buying in replacements regularly, then that strain will be the 'local' bee, but it doesn't necessarily mean it is locally adapted.

 

[Apple]

Do you mean local bees, or locally adapted bees?
If a commercial bee farmer in the area has 100s of hives and is buying in replacements regularly, then that strain will be the 'local' bee, but it doesn't necessarily mean it is locally adapted.

That dear friend is the problem of importation, and bringing in "unsuitable bees".... constantly changeing the local gene pool often to the detrement of the "other" local Beefarmer's stock from which he has been selecting and improving his bees and working with their adaptations to a changing environment for possibly decades!

 

[madasafish]

Black bee's are gentle you just have to be selective.. Don't be scared of the thought of keeping natives because your a newbee, and you have heard from other beekeepers that they can be aggressive, this is true for all types.
Defencive behaviour can't be just judged by bee type alone.

Sorry but generalisations are wrong.

Our Association bought 2 Qs from Colonsay..
Their colonies were Horrible..


Some locals have black bees which were very nice, but now are tending to horrible after swarms/mating with local mongrels (which are also horrible)

 

[BeeGiner]

Perhaps when the expression “improving bees” is used (as Apple does above) the “improving” should be put in quotes. It seems to me that improving one aspect of bees (e.g. honey production) is often detrimental in other ways (e.g. aggression, ability to fly in colder conditions). So one beekeepers improvement can be another beekeepers problem.

 

[BeeGiner]

Sorry Apple I may have misquoted you as I now can’t find your use of the word “improving”

 

[Curly green finger's]

Sorry but generalisations are wrong.

Our Association bought 2 Qs from Colonsay..
Their colonies were Horrible..


Some locals have black bees which were very nice, but now are tending to horrible after swarms/mating with local mongrels (which are also horrible)

I think this is area specific, my first cross Amm and Italian mongrels are 75% stable at home.
Queens that were sent from home to my mentors Mating station, 30 miles away nr clun are all stable so far tutch wood.

I say area specific because the association Italian mongrels are horrible.

One of our Amm queen's is being trialed among 8 colonys at a association members apairy and they are performing well in all traits that we are looking for.

We can all agree that if you go beyond f2 you are looking for trouble.
Like you madasafish Im requeening every two years I've no queen's that will go into there third year.

 

[Swarm]

We should really stop using the Hybrid formula of F1, F2, it's convenient but that's about all, it may apply to seeds but not bees.
It's the usual story, beekeeper complains that local bees are horrible, brings in one of the many offerings. Couple of open matings later and it's rinse and repeat and tells everyone this has to be done because local bees are .....
It's a selfish, lazy approach that does nothing for the honey bee and ironically creates the very thing they whine about.

 

[Curly green finger's]

We should really stop using the Hybrid formula of F1, F2, it's convenient but that's about all, it may apply to seeds but not bees.
It's the usual story, beekeeper complains that local bees are horrible, brings in one of the many offerings. Couple of open matings later and it's rinse and repeat and tells everyone this has to be done because local bees are .....
It's a selfish, lazy approach that does nothing for the honey bee and ironically creates the very thing they whine about.

What would we call a first and second cross then? I wish B+ was still on here because he could explain the percentage of first and second crosses really well.
Are you implying that I'm lazy Steve and whine!! or am I getting your post wrong.. Apologies if I am.

 

[Ian123]

F1 is the general term used by the large breeders for first cross, you can at least say it’s industry standard, even if some don’t like it Buckfast - 5 Types check out the description of type 2

 

[BugsInABox]

F1 is the general term used by the large breeders for first cross, you can at least say it’s industry standard, even if some don’t like it Buckfast - 5 Types check out the description of type 2

It's really tricky, it's hard to understand what the term F1 means in relation to buckfast which, as I understadn at least, are not a stable line themselves but are a very specific type of mongral? Two cockapoos wont produce a cockapoo.

Unless maybe now we are half a centuary on from Brother Adam and with artifical insemination possible buckfasts has been line bred and are stable. If this is the case I'm suprised it's not common knowledge as pretty easy to test for now - and not an unreaosnable ask if your chargign £500 for "Selected Breeders" - (Type 5 at Ian's link). Are these 'Selective Breeders' Poodles/Spanials (In which case by what definition are they Buckfast) or Cockapoos?

 

[Nige.Coll]

Some beekeepers have very entrenched views on the species of bee that is kept. Ultimately there are many factors to choosing from a personal level. The UKs biggest bee farmer keeps Buckfast type bees in the east of Scotland with great success

I thought he used jolenta carniolan bees.

 

[linoleum bonypart]

I was going to suggest Murrays Jolanta's...

 

[madasafish]

I thought he used jolenta carniolan bees.

He does.

I am trialling one for next year.

I'm not a lazy beekeeper but with 7 full hives, my queen rearing scope is very limited..# Ideally I should have 20 +. But I am not going to.

I kept one queen for 4 seasons. By then she was limping and was superceded. Honey yields years 3 and 4 from the hive were rubbish. Never again.

# almost as limited as my eyesight and grafting competence.

 

[Nige.Coll]

Have a look on google at the traits of honeybees there are plenty of sites that show the different pro's and con's of the sub species.
Work on how long your winters are and the weather in your area but most of the UK has very mild winters now.
Some bees cope well with longer winters and some don't.
Some are more disease tolerant than others.
Also decide what you want from beekeeping.
Some make more honey than others.
Keeping honeybees is a steep learning curve and there is a lot to learn and a fair bit of expense to start up from scratch.
The type of honey bee will influence the type of hive you have also as some won't live happily in the smaller hive types and swarm a lot because of lack of space.

 

[bingevader]

Sorry but generalisations are wrong.

Our Association bought 2 Qs from Colonsay..
Their colonies were Horrible..

Some locals have black bees which were very nice, but now are tending to horrible after swarms/mating with local mongrels (which are also horrible)

May I suggest that extrapolations are also not helpful?
2 Qs and some locals, doesn't mean all black bees are nasty either.

 

[Nige.Coll]

May I suggest that extrapolations are also not helpful?
2 Qs and some locals, doesn't mean all black bees are nasty either.

To be fair I had a colonsay queen and made the mistake of breeding from it. They are all dead now. Got the daughter of one coming in a hive that has been given to me first job next year is to pop her too.