When is second quality not second quality

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nonstandard 

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I received and checked my Th**nes sale order today and was very pleased with everything apart from one brood box, as can be seen in the video and photo (sorry for the bad filming), there is a long shake/split down one of the side boards. This split flexes under gentle pressure to such an extent that I feel the board would almost fall in half should I remove the bands; I accept that when nailed and glued and propolised the board will probably be serviceable but is it acceptable?

In the same pack there is a knot hole right where the tongue from the side rail fits (photo) again is this within acceptable limits?

I understand that I have ordered seconds and not first quality so I expect some faults but as this is my first order from Th**nes, I was wondering if this is normal for sale seconds or do I need to contact them? I accept that Th**nes must be very busy at sale time and this may be a genuine oversight and as already stated I am very happy with the rest of the £250 order.

Couldn't get the video to upload so I youtubed it [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fie_j8vDCk"]here[/ame]
 
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drstitson 

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that looks like it could be split apart fully then glued and clamped with a reasonable end result.

m**s*m**e were very quick to replace a banana shaped piece of seconds eke that was unusable as it stood.
 

thedeaddiplomat 

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Should I have that sort of problem with my order (if it ever arrives!), I would contact Th***es about it.

Seems to me there is at least a reasonable argument that that particular board would fail under the Sale of Goods Act requirement that goods sold must be fit for purpose. Seconds or not, if it cannot be used for its advertised purpose it is not acceptable.
 

Chris B 

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I would say that falls below 2nd quality. It would be pointless using that split box - you just know it wouldn't last long even if you got it assembled.
Just ask for replacement parts.
 

Flatters 

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Hi Nonstandard
I would reject these and contact Th**nes. On their Bees on a Budget info they state that they are seconds however they are seconds because they "may have solid live knots". What you have recived are beyond seconds. I have called Th**nes before and they have always been helpful.
 

Kev 

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thats about the sort of condition i would expect from a second pack.
I would also have found the split board acceptable - as previously said i would flex it to open the split, squirt some glue in and clamp it flat to dry.

The knott on the joint in the other board - not so sure, looks like the box will still be bee-tight, if that is the case then i would just fill once i had assembled the box.

Kev
 

Poly Hive 

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Not fit for purpose. The split BB side that is. Phone Thornes.

The knot issue is another matter, they are 2nds and that is with in the description.

PH
 

Rosti 

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In my book that is not acceptable. Irrespective of defects the product purchased must be 'fit for purpose' and of the 'structural quality demanded to perform its intended duties'

Seconds may have cosmetic faults and minor defects but that quite simply is a critical structural failure (split plank) the knot hole is probably the limits of what I would expect or tollerate without complaint.

I buy from Thornes extensively, its convienient, but I am not a blind follower, their seconds price is not far short of other peoples premium product prices and 'seconds' is not code for dumping rubbish on punters (IMO).
 

Monsieur Abeille 

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Not fit for purpose. The split BB side that is. Phone Th**nes.

The knot issue is another matter, they are 2nds and that is with in the description.

PH
:iagree:

You shouldnt have to split and reglue these - and I dont imagine Thornes would have any proiblem taking it back.

The 3 14x12 brood boxes I got all had noticable defects - either warped sides or knot holes similar to yours, but I consider them all manageable. That split is way beond that. Mind you the supers I recieved would be hardpushed to identify what the faults were.
 

Black Comb 

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Any problems I have had with Thorn*s have always been sorted out.
Just 'phone them and explain.
 

greywolf 

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Hi Nonstandard
I would reject these and contact Th**nes. On their Bees on a Budget info they state that they are seconds however they are seconds because they "may have solid live knots". What you have recived are beyond seconds. I have called Th**nes before and they have always been helpful.
That would apply if they were' Bees on a budget' but not if they are sales items which are sold at a very reduced price. ie. flat packed national brood body at £15.32 + vat compared to first quality at £31.91 + vat

I found Thornes very honest and helpfull. They advised me that the sales goods would require some work on them and that 'bees on a budget hives' were solid but of second quality being of a more basic finish with solid knots

In the end I opted for first quality. It seems you get what you pay for.
 

Stiffy 

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I would say that the split was probably caused during transit and that Thornes would not have sent it out like that. The knot is what you could expect from a 2nd.
I would call and see what they have to say, they are normally very good at replacing if there is a problem.
Cheers
S
 

PaleoPerson 

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Seconds are quite simply second quality, this does not negate the point that they should be 'fit for purpose'.

Having to effect repairs to an item to bring it into service is of lower quality that one should accept as a second.

Speak to Thornes in the first instance.
 

oliver90owner 

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In the past, I have had side rails which were slightly warped (well, 'quite' warped actually), dead knots and the odd small spilit.

Nearly always the dead knots are unimportant, as selection of position for that piece usually results in a) hiding it behind a side bar and/or b) making sure the knot would 'drain' towards the outside (ie not allow/encourage water ingress).

I always screw the parts together which usually means simply using screws instead of nails, but in some instances I have needed to drill extra pilot holes for those screws holding warped side bars, to 'pull' them into position. No real hassle, just a bit of thought, selection and extra work.

That said, I would usually have several bodies from which to select the best combination of parts, some only have a single one, so less scope for selection. The other way is, say, make 4 good ones and one rough, but serviceable, one. That is what it usually amounted to.

Frames are the other seconds I have purchased and I usually lose about two percent (unseviceable IMO, or break on assembly). They were a little worse than that last year and no checks completed yet, this year - usually the top bars are the limiting item as invariably the side and bottom bars are in surplus (to the useable top bars).

Eventually I should have a sufficient surplus of those parts to order an extra set of top bars, perhaps; in real life that will not happen and those parts will repair other old re-cycled frames from the heap of parts or I may machine a few top bars myself.

Of those two faults? I would glue the side wall and likely fill the dead knot. The dead knot is the greater of the two faults in my book. The split could be remedied and be unnoticeable from a first quality part regarding fitness for purpose. Again selection of position, so any water would not potentially run into the crack would be a sensible precaution.

Regards, RAB
 

blackbrood 

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I would speak to T hornes in a civil manner and explain my concerns and then take it from there. If you dont ask them, you dont know.
 

nonstandard 

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Thanks to all, I just wanted to poll opinion before I contacted Th**nes about this.

It would look like opinion is about 50/50, so I will make a polite call to see what happens.

I notice that the 'bees on a budget' hive may have 'solid live Knots' but interestingly there does not seem to be any minimum spec for the sale items besides that I don't know what the difference is between live and dead knots.

My neighbour bought a 'bees on a budget' and will be buying a second one this year, personally I think that they are good value for money and certainly serviceable although I would recommend using a mitre clamp or two and some gluer during construction to ensure everything fits square.

As already stated the rest of the order was a lot better than this one item, the other two 14 x 12 broods have a few solid knots, the supers have no discernible faults and neither do the WBC lifts, the frames are just the same as the seconds frames I purchased last year.

I shall contact Th**nes and let you know of the outcome.
 

Oakbear 

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Good luck!

Makes me glad i physically went now. I can't for the life of me work out why the 14x12's i picked up were seconds.....
 

PaleoPerson 

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Good luck!

Makes me glad i physically went now. I can't for the life of me work out why the 14x12's i picked up were seconds.....
Th**nes use imported Western Red Cedar for their top quality and UK (different grain and knottier) Cedar for the seconds. The imported Cedar is a better quality in comparison. In theory, you could get an absolute perfect second as it is the lumber type that makes it 'seconds'.
 
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jimbeekeeper 

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I would speak to T hornes in a civil manner and explain my concerns and then take it from there. If you dont ask them, you dont know.
I bet you get a full refund and or item replaced with no questions asked.

Nowt wrong with Thornes in my book.

PS looks to me like the straping has created or added to the issue/chnage of temperature/ humidity
 

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