Whats falling down the gap between the NBU and the BBKA?

[user 6228]

Robin the very fact you ask for evidence that you’ll alienate these groups or even get them to take you seriously is a worrying in itself, it’s in what you’ve written! The very fact you’ve not even mentioned the BFA is puzzling do you know who they are?You also keep offering up Slovenia, I rather think the Germans are streets ahead.
As for supcedure of those groups I doubt they’ll worry they’ll simply ignore you.

Hey, guilty because he asks for evidence of guilt. Hang on to your seats, We are now venturing into advanced rhetoric and logical fallacies, but it doesnt stop: accusation of ignorance, guilt by omission, diminution by association, and lastly dimunition by indifference. Facts and logic are so mid 20th century.

 

[rdartington]

Robin the very fact you ask for evidence that you’ll alienate these groups or even get them to take you seriously is a worrying in itself, it’s in what you’ve written! The very fact you’ve not even mentioned the BFA is puzzling do you know who they are?You also keep offering up Slovenia, I rather think the Germans are streets ahead.
As for supcedure of those groups I doubt they’ll worry they’ll simply ignore you.

Glad to have your confirmation that your view on my alienation is completely unevidenced. just your way of putting down everything that is said not by yourself.
I find conversation with you is a waste of time. Lets just agree to disagree and push on.

 

[sarahcorlett2566]

I'd not be entirely surprised if the majority of BBKA members don't really have much interest in it beyond the insurance. I wonder if they've actually been asked any time this century?

Personally I think it would benefit beekeepers if there were a much greater focus on quality education and promoting best practice for both beginners and "progressing" beekeepers. I agree that local BKAs largely seem left to their own devices when teaching beginners and whilst I'm sure many really do try to do a good job, received "lore" and occasionally plain ignorance do sometimes get passed on as unimpeachable fact. I'd hardly be surprised if sometimes there are vested interests at work trying to guide beginners down a specific path or otherwise serving their own ends, too.

I've only ever done the Basic practical qualification so I can't really comment on what those are like, but whilst I have no particular objection to the concept of the "Modules" I find the implementation chaotic. In my view the syllabus for each is poorly written and ill-defined. Yates may get a bad press, but ultimately I think the goal was a good one: there should be some sort of "course text". Granted it's more tricky given that there's active research going on at a level that affects even hobby beekeepers and which a good course should take into account, but it doesn't have to be printed on paper. I'd suggest that there's a fair bit of material in the modules that's of little benefit to most and easy to look up online if you desperately need it, too. Maybe it would be better to just chuck out the current content and redo the whole lot with a significant practical component to back up the theory, and use properly trained tutors even if that meant that people would have to pay to do the courses. If you complete a module and can't answer "Yes" to the question "Am I a more capable beekeeper as a result of this?", was there really any point doing it?

I'd ditch the BBKA News as a paper publication too. It's an outdated format that seems like a waste of money to me.

Perhaps there are people who feel that another organisation is required because they view the BBKA as being beyond the point of being able to change. I don't really have an opinion on that one.

James

Those are interesting comments about the Basic course. I tend to like to provide expansive answers to things and I was very frustrated on my Basic Assessment when all they wanted was very succinct answers - life cycle of a queen bee - answer 3,5,8 - not what each number meant and they weren’t interested in any explanations about why some swarm management methods are different from others. I got the impression that anyone who had read the syllabus, read the books and regurgitated the answers verbatim without understanding any of it, would have passed with flying colours. However, the practical session was very thorough and if you didn’t know what you were doing you wouldn’t have passed (although you might not have known why you were doing things)! That said, I guess they have a lot of people to get through and if all the candidates were as loquacious as me, they’d be there for weeks

 

[rolande]

I think it's a shame that so much emphasis of this thread is on an alternative to the BBKA, that really isn't what would improve things. What we really could do with (if any change is needed at all) is a series of serious /funded bee departments probably in agricultural colleges (as they often were in the past) rather than universities as I myself suggested earlier - the rediculous suggestions for university level research projects which I've read in this thread have cured me of that idea!

Good, basic beekeeping training in an organised manner, delivered by a professional instructor who knows how to communicate the relevant information. Meanwhile the BBKA would continue on its own separate journey.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Good, basic beekeeping training in an organised manner, delivered by a professional instructor who knows how to communicate the relevant information. Meanwhile the BBKA would continue on its own separate journey.

That’s the best suggestion here.
One of my first courses was at Myerscough college in Lancashire.
I did learn how to handle a colony for which I’m eternally grateful. However the course tutor was a great exponent of covering the bees with icing sugar at regular intervals. Thankfully my local association mentor who is now an SBI put me straight.
Then I found this forum and as a result of the serendipitous combination I got turned into some semblance of a beekeeper.

 

[Hebeegeebee]

It's very easy to bash the BBKA (Or they make it very easy to be bashed).
It's a long time since I looked at the BBKA website which hasn't changed for a few years and is more PR and 'Give us some Money' rather than something for beekeepers who actually pay for it. (A bit like when you go onto a company website and see "Investor Relations" at the top which instantly tells you that the service the company offers will be terrible and it's time to move on).

BBKA members log in page today:-
"Please register to our new website if this is your first visit since Monday 15th January 2018". Maybe some updating is required after 5 years? Has the website been forgotten?

I haven't logged in for a while and haven't done so just now, although I cannot recall that there was as much there as there used to be, before the current version - leaflets etc - and certainly there was nothing that had to be secret and for the eyes of BBKA members only.

The BBKA modules are OK but they continue to go from 1 to 8 with one missing which is plainly daft.
And what happened to BBKA ARK or whatever it was called? - the record of achievement website thing that was DOA? Has it been killed off?

 

[Erichalfbee]

I visit the forum occasionally.

 

[Ian123]

Glad to have your confirmation that your view on my alienation is completely unevidenced. just your way of putting down everything that is said not by yourself.
I find conversation with you is a waste of time. Lets just agree to disagree and push on.

So I take it the pair of you have decided on the first committee members
I clearly suggested in was in what you’ve said, and if you’re not sure you could have gone back and read your posts.
You’ve suggested banning queen imports several times, in that single statement alone you’ve alienated most commercial operations large scale queen breeders/rears and I’d suggest many larger amateurs. Also judging by the results of the bbka queen import petition a good proportion of their membership! Then to top it off the BFA some of whom may be covered in the above groups.
With the bbka you’ll be setting up in direct competition. You’ll be fighting for limited seats at the table for gov attention/resources. In terms of public funding and donations that you suggest, you’ll be competing directly for the same people/funds.

That is why you’ll alienate those groups! And that’s before we get on to claims you make in other threads regarding beekeeping practices, not long ago you claimed there was no need or desire for people to move hives anymore? You describe comb change as a key operation!…… most i
Know change comb as required it’s not key! We’ve not even got on to the fairy dust providing abilities of long hives have we.
So again you will alienate these groups and some won’t take you seriously, so I’m left wondering who the target market is.

 

[pargyle]

So I take it the pair of you have decided on the first committee members
I clearly suggested in was in what you’ve said, and if you’re not sure you could have gone back and read your posts.
You’ve suggested banning queen imports several times, in that single statement alone you’ve alienated most commercial operations large scale queen breeders/rears and I’d suggest many larger amateurs. Also judging by the results of the bbka queen import petition a good proportion of their membership! Then to top it off the BFA some of whom may be covered in the above groups.
With the bbka you’ll be setting up in direct competition. You’ll be fighting for limited seats at the table for gov attention/resources. In terms of public funding and donations that you suggest, you’ll be competing directly for the same people/funds.

That is why you’ll alienate those groups! And that’s before we get on to claims you make in other threads regarding beekeeping practices, not long ago you claimed there was no need or desire for people to move hives anymore? You describe comb change as a key operation!…… most i
Know change comb as required it’s not key! We’ve not even got on to the fairy dust providing abilities of long hives have we.
So again you will alienate these groups and some won’t take you seriously, so I’m left wondering who the target market is.

Setting aside the personal beekeeping ideas that Robin has ... you have to agree that the BBKA as an organisation is lacklustre. Regardless of your personal view of Robins beekeeping (and I would reiterate - there is a place for every style of beekeeping on here and we should not be constantly seeking to promote or dismiss alterative styles) he is putting forward something that could have a place in beekeeping. The UK Institute of Beekeeping is not a bad idea .. yes, it would be difficult to get off the ground and it would need to have some attraction for all beekeepers to feel able to subscribe.

I don't share your concerns that anyone needs to be alienated ... just look at it as a concept and not from the point of view that it can't work - given the will and some backing it could replace an ailing and outdated BBKA. It could sit comfortably alongside the BFA - there's no conflct there.

But - we are probably discussing something that can never happen unless there's a multi-millionaire beekeeping enthusiast with a desire to create the conditions and infrastructure to get it off the ground.

You should separate your views on the potential detail and just consider the concept.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

The UK Institute of Beekeeping is not a bad idea

But the model suggested definitely is

 

[The Poot]

I shall reread this thread tonight, to ensure I get a good nights sleep.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I shall reread this thread tonight, to ensure I get a good nights sleep.

Maybe you need some matchsticks to get you through.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Maybe you need some matchsticks to get you through.

Maybe you'll get awarded an inscribed set when you subscribe to this new 'institute'
But to be honest - who wants to be institutionalised?

 

[Murox]

It seems increasingly that Everybody blames Somebody when Nobody did what Anybody could have done.

Napoleon’s term hinting that “L'Angleterre” was a nation of little ambition whose people were far too concerned with other things to be seriously considered comes to mind.

Why is balance /union/coalition so difficult to achieve?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Why is balance /union/coalition so difficult to achieve?

Opinions are diverse. People won’t agree. Compromise is difficult

Keep calm, folks.
Let’s not get emotionally carried away

 

[rdartington]

So I take it the pair of you have decided on the first committee members
I clearly suggested in was in what you’ve said, and if you’re not sure you could have gone back and read your posts.
You’ve suggested banning queen imports several times, in that single statement alone you’ve alienated most commercial operations large scale queen breeders/rears and I’d suggest many larger amateurs. Also judging by the results of the bbka queen import petition a good proportion of their membership! Then to top it off the BFA some of whom may be covered in the above groups.
With the bbka you’ll be setting up in direct competition. You’ll be fighting for limited seats at the table for gov attention/resources. In terms of public funding and donations that you suggest, you’ll be competing directly for the same people/funds.

That is why you’ll alienate those groups! And that’s before we get on to claims you make in other threads regarding beekeeping practices, not long ago you claimed there was no need or desire for people to move hives anymore? You describe comb change as a key operation!…… most i
Know change comb as required it’s not key! We’ve not even got on to the fairy dust providing abilities of long hives have we.
So again you will alienate these groups and some won’t take you seriously, so I’m left wondering who the target market is.

Again, you go for total dismissal of anything that is not your own opinion, wondering at ‘who the target market is’, implying there isn’t one. It‘s tedious replying to you.
If any group is alienated, ie turned away by what I say, that is their freedom and choice. There are several political parties - not everyone thinks the same.
On specifics, it is fact that not all beekeepers move hives to crops - those that do not move, do not need a hive designed for moving.
Science tells us that disease organisms build up in comb and comb change, such as a Bailey change, deals with that. If you don’’t regard avoiding disease as a ‘key operation’ that is just your view as a non-scientist. There is no ‘fairy dust’ about long hives, which include top bar hives, Layens, Ukrainean, Zest, Golden hive, Drayton hive as well as DLD’s and even Langstroths’ own ‘twin hives‘ which he illustrated in his book in 1853 and described inside as his best. OK, you have never even looked at a long hive, but you know so much more about bees and beekeeping that you can dismiss all types as ‘fairy dust’ !

I am absolutely in favour of banning importation of queens, in order to return to ‘locally adapted bees’. So are many beekeepers. Queen breeders can and do operate OK within UK.

I wont go on. You seem indued with negativity.

 

[rdartington]

Maybe you'll get awarded an inscribed set when you subscribe to this new 'institute'
But to be honest - who wants to be institutionalised?

All architects, engineers, surveyors builders in the construction industry for a start. Then just about all professions that depend for public confidence on the practitioners being trained and proficient. Google ‘institutes‘ and see the long lists of all forms of institutes, including Inn Keepers as I have said before.

As hobbyists, not all beekeepers would want to join - especially if it meant parting with some of the income from their bees. Some will be happier free-loading off those who do pay to improve beekeeping. But at some time, beware, holding qualifications might become obligatory. Beekeeping was banned totally in New York until recently. Beekeepers in cities might one day have to prove their bees were in safe hands to avoid risk to the public.
All car drivers have to be licensed - and all drivers must wear seat belts to minimise damage to themselves.

 

[rdartington]

Setting aside the personal beekeeping ideas that Robin has ... you have to agree that the BBKA as an organisation is lacklustre. Regardless of your personal view of Robins beekeeping (and I would reiterate - there is a place for every style of beekeeping on here and we should not be constantly seeking to promote or dismiss alterative styles) he is putting forward something that could have a place in beekeeping. The UK Institute of Beekeeping is not a bad idea .. yes, it would be difficult to get off the ground and it would need to have some attraction for all beekeepers to feel able to subscribe.

I don't share your concerns that anyone needs to be alienated ... just look at it as a concept and not from the point of view that it can't work - given the will and some backing it could replace an ailing and outdated BBKA. It could sit comfortably alongside the BFA - there's no conflct there.

But - we are probably discussing something that can never happen unless there's a multi-millionaire beekeeping enthusiast with a desire to create the conditions and infrastructure to get it off the ground.

You should separate your views on the potential detail and just consider the concept.

The group who founded BBKA were successful business men I believe, not notable ultra-rich. Today, there are many retirees on good pensions who may be bored with no company to run any longer.
but someone could try Sunak as long shot!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

but someone could try Sunak as long shot!

 

[Erichalfbee]

I think most things that need to be said about this have been said
It all sounds like a hobbyist heaven.
Meanwhile commercial farmers live in the real world. So this thread has run its course.
Once it starts getting personal it’s time to close it.