What is hopelessly queenless hive?

[Finman]

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What is difference between queenless and hopelesly queenless?

Hopeless term has been used more and more insted of normal queenless hive in this forum.

I have met the hopeless term in worker laying cases, when the hive has no queen and no hope to rear a queen. The queen has died or vanished and there are no larvae in the hive.

A hive, no queen but it has queen vells, is very normal condition in the beehive. That is natural in swarming.

When you are going to give a new queen, the hive cannot be hopeless.
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[Antipodes]

I imagined (rightly or wrongly) that hopelessly queenless referred to a situation where the colony had no queen and the colony themselves could not raise a queen (without the beekeeper helping). I thought this was where the colony had no eggs or young enough larvae. Being queenless (not hopelessly so) was, (I thought), where they have no queen but still might (themselves) be able to raise a queen (again, without the beekeeper helping).

 

[viridens]

Spot on.

 

[Anduril]

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Hopeless when the hive has no queen and no hope to rear a queen. The queen has died or vanished and there are no larvae of a suitable age to raise queens in the hive.

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I have edited your post above.
Our meaning of queenless, 'no queen but larvae of a suitable age to make queens'.

Our meaning of hopelessly queenless 'a hive or nuc with capped brood and larvae too old to make queens, totally devoid of eggs and young larvae'.

As Antipodes post

 

[GuyNir]

I thought the distinction between Q- and hopelessly Q- is quite straight forward and clear (as stated in the posts above).
Does the colony has the means to become Q+ on their own or not?

 

[eltalia]

" When you are going to give a new queen, the hive cannot be hopeless."

True Finny.... however when a LWS colony is the target they will kill
her, and so technically speaking those type colonys are "hopelessly
queenless" regardless of the b'keeps intention.
As I have comprehensively laid out in another topic/thread the b'keep
has to do more than just throw a queen in - without that work the
situation remains "hopelessly queenless"
Okay?

Bill

 

[Finman]

" When you are going to give a new queen, the hive cannot be hopeless."

True Finny.... however when a LWS colony is the target they will kill
her, and so technically speaking those type colonys are "hopelessly
queenless" regardless of the b'keeps intention.
As I have comprehensively laid out in another topic/thread the b'keep
has to do more than just throw a queen in - without that work the
situation remains "hopelessly queenless"
Okay?

Bill

There are hopeless beekeepers too, if the colony kills all queens which the beek offers.




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[eltalia]

There are hopeless beekeepers too, if the colony kills all queens which the beek offers.
.

You're too kind with tags Finny... a person throwing more than
one queen at a "hopelessly queenless" colony is reaching for a
new Award, I'd reckon.

/grinz/

Bill

 

[Finman]

You're too kind with tags Finny... a person throwing more than
one queen at a "hopelessly queenless" colony is reaching for a
new Award, I'd reckon.

/grinz/

Bill

If the hive kills one queen, I give another. But I do not throw it.

It is not rare that a hive kills an introduced queen.



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[viridens]

Have you forgotten about requeening by uniting with a queenright colony?

 

[Finman]

Have you forgotten about requeening by uniting with a queenright colony?

If you ask me, I have requeened during 57 years quite many colonies. I do not remember what I have forgotten. And I have united lots of colonies.

Spring is often time of queen failures and it better then join hives..

 

[eltalia]

If the hive kills one queen, I give another. But I do not throw it.
It is not rare that a hive kills an introduced queen.
.

Maybe so in your apiary, here though it is rare enough to well
remember why and so n0t repeat the same scenario.

It may well be the differences in Practice stem from our
learning efficiency surpassed both Speculation and Sentiment
every time - at least in terms of happy colonys which then equals
"Money in the Bank".
/shrug/

Bill

 

[Finman]

Maybe so in your apiary, here though it is rare enough to well
remember why and so n0t repeat the same ... are

Bill

Good heavens.... where are your facts.....numbers. and I did not speak about my apiary.

.

 

[eltalia]

Good heavens.... where are your facts.....numbers. and I did not speak about my apiary.

Huh...?... are you asking me to share our business operational
statistics, Finny??
Tis a bit "rude" do you not think?

"If you ask me, I have requeened during 57 years quite many
colonies. I do not remember what I have forgotten.
And I have united lots of colonies."

... enough of "I" and "me" in that statement of claim to indeed conclude you are
speaking about your apiary, and so my response in kind about ours.

Queen breeders may throw a differing view on the statistics as it is they
who would know about "repeat business" from the same source, soon
after supply.



Bill

 

[Finman]

Huh...?... are you asking me to share our business

Queen breeders may throw a differing view on the statistics as it is they
who would know about "repeat business" from the same source, soon
after supply.

Bill

Oh dear...

 

[eltalia]

Oh dear...

Indeed... a very small sampling, buuut at our (boarding) college were
the sons of two canecutter brothers of Finnish origins, imports of the post
WWII (Aussie) immigration program. Both boys were the grail of politeness
and "good behaviour" - and so well respected in the school "peck order".
The fact they could both glove up and "go like a thrashing machine" in the ring
also bought those silly enough to take advantage of their quiet demeanour
quickly to realise there lies much sense in good manners.

... just waxing lyrical on a fine winter's morn, bees flying.

Bill

 

[Finman]

Indeed... a very small sampling, buuut at our (boarding) college were
the sons of two canecutter brothers of Finnish origins, imports of the post
WWII (Aussie) immigration program. Both boys were the grail of politeness
and "good behaviour" - and so well respected in the school "peck order".
The fact they could both glove up and "go like a thrashing machine" in the ring
also bought those silly enough to take advantage of their quiet demeanour
quickly to realise there lies much sense in good manners.

... just waxing lyrical on a fine winter's morn, bees flying.

Bill

Just hoperlessly errrfect
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[coffindodger]

Just hoperlessly errrfect
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[birdsandbees]

Okay, here's on to ponder where you say Hopelessly Queenless means that they are doomed where DLW's have commenced.

I have managed to make such colonies Q+ on more than one occasion.

The two methods I used are.

1. Capped Queen cell added on a frame of brood from another colony - queen accepted and sorted the situation.

2. Mated queen added in a push in cage over a frame of brood from another colony - queen accepted and sorted the situation.

Yes, perhaps an unnecessary risk and potentially may not have worked but I like experimenting.

One thing I tried and won't again is shaking them out (allegedly laying workers can't fly) I think this is one of those lost in translation things and what it should say is a method when shaking them out to disband the colony they will be suppressed when they enter another that is Q+

 

[Erichalfbee]

Queenless..... no queen
Hopelessly Queenless ..... bees have no young larvae so no way to make a new one

A doomed colony is just that...... doomed. Lots of reasons for that