Warre - feeding dilemma

[user 20297]

I am on balance going to leave them to it, but keep a daily watch on the traffic/ behaviour at the entrance, and the weather forecast.

If I feel I need to act urgently, then at least I am better prepared....

.... But I am currently minded to keep faith in the bees knowing best.

An interesting discussion, for sure. Thanks all.

At the weekend, I had a speedy look under the crownboard of my Warre because I thought the colony was dead. They have been the only bees not venturing out during the last month....I check regularly. However, they are booming and although in the top box, they appeared to have stores...mine are on two boxes.

 

[oxnatbees]

You're not feeding them, so you're not stimulating early brood requiring massive fuel use. Plus, Warres are very well insulated. They MIGHT be OK. Their main risk is if there are too few bees clustering to keep warm enough to get through the coldest weather, ie probably the next week.

I have a similar tiny colony in a Warre, but it has loads of stores. I reckon mine will be fine (it shrank to a ridiculously small cluster the previous 2 years too). But yours... I think, on balance, even a hard line no treater / rare feeder would feed in this case, perhaps using honey from one of the other hives dribbled into a comb you remove and replace. It's been a hard winter, i.e. borderline freezing, and damp, so colonies haven't gone fully dormant and minimised fuel use.

 

[JamezF]

My biggest dilemma with these systems is how the bee inspector will react when that day comes.

I imagine that would be quite a problem. My understanding from a discussion here a while back is that the law requires the beekeeper to make all the combs available to the inspector to check. I'm aware that some people manage that with skeps and replace the comb roughly where it came from by putting skewers or similar through the sides of the skep and the comb, but with a frameless multi-box wooden hive I could see that turning into a huge mess, never mind the amount of robbing that could end up occurring. At least with the Warré you have a top bar to hold the comb in place if it's cut away from the sides.

Then again, there seems to be something of a dearth of SBIs at the moment, so perhaps the chances of actually having a visit from one are quite slim.

James

 

[boywonder]

I imagine that would be quite a problem. My understanding from a discussion here a while back is that the law requires the beekeeper to make all the combs available to the inspector to check. I'm aware that some people manage that with skeps and replace the comb roughly where it came from by putting skewers or similar through the sides of the skep and the comb, but with a frameless multi-box wooden hive I could see that turning into a huge mess, never mind the amount of robbing that could end up occurring. At least with the Warré you have a top bar to hold the comb in place if it's cut away from the sides.

Then again, there seems to be something of a dearth of SBIs at the moment, so perhaps the chances of actually having a visit from one are quite slim.

James

Yep... the top bars of the Warre mean that - with careful slicing of the comb adhered to the walls of the box, a comb can be cleanly lifted from the box and replaced - as with all TBHs I guess.

I was inspected the year before last, and the SBI was pragmatic enough to allow me to pull just one bar from the middle of the brood nest to inspect, on the Warre.

How you would fare in a system where bees are not drawing comb off bars (i.e. wild - albeit guided) - I have no idea.

I must have a look at this Japanese system. Probably a bridge too far for me

 

[Erichalfbee]

I am on balance going to leave them to it, but keep a daily watch on the traffic/ behaviour at the entrance, and the weather forecast.

If I feel I need to act urgently, then at least I am better prepared....

.... But I am currently minded to keep faith in the bees knowing best.

An interesting discussion, for sure. Thanks all.

Do let us know what happens....live or die
It might help somebody else in a similar situation hold their nerve or learn from a misjudgement

 

[Erichalfbee]

I was inspected the year before last, and the SBI was pragmatic enough to allow me to pull just one bar from the middle of the brood nest to inspect, on the Warre

Would that apply in the face of an inspection for brood disease, I wonder.
I had an inspection for AFB in 2021 and the SBI examined every frame thoroughly

 

[rolande]

I read of a learned, skilled and respected beekeeper some years ago, when asked his opinion on Warree said (and this is a paraphrase as I cannot remember where I read it to dig it out)
'Nice bloke - knows bugger all about bees though' (that may even not be a paraphrase!!)

I think that's what most beekeepers think about their peers -and in many cases time only seems to justify the opinion.

——————
A little mentioned fact is that the good abbot used to advertise his Italian queens in the British bee press during the early years of the 20th century.

 

[boywonder]

Would that apply in the face of an inspection for brood disease, I wonder.
I had an inspection for AFB in 2021 and the SBI examined every frame thoroughly

The inspector was out due to an EFB outbreak in the locality.

She went through every frame on the two 14x12 hives in the same garden apiary (which were both clear). I suppose that, when we got to the Warre, there was probably a high degree of confidence that there was no apiary issue. Furthermore, from the state of the brood comb lifted from that one bar, it was clear (and would have been, even to a novice) that there was no brood disease.

She probably should have pulled every bar... but I appreciated the pragmatic approach. I am a great believer in the spirit of the law trumping the letter of the law...

... your worship

 

[boywonder]

Do let us know what happens....live or die
It might help somebody else in a similar situation hold their nerve or learn from a misjudgement

Will do!

 

[boywonder]

I am on balance going to leave them to it, but keep a daily watch on the traffic/ behaviour at the entrance, and the weather forecast.

If I feel I need to act urgently, then at least I am better prepared....

.... But I am currently minded to keep faith in the bees knowing best.

An interesting discussion, for sure. Thanks all.

WEATHER UPDATE

Like most of us, I guess, I keep a keen eye on the weather. Not from the Daily Express or GB News, I hasten to add.

Many will know about the recent sudden stratospheric warming event over the Arctic, and the possibility, at least, of a proper cold snap / Beast from the East.

The BBC (MeteoGroup) don't seem to have caught up.The Met Office do ... But the point is that it now looks like every weather model is predicting this ... from (mid?) next week. See e.g.

Below/significantly below average temperatures and snowfall to be expected.

So, with the Warre, I am going to properly assess both the size of the colony, and the extent/lack of stores in their top box, this weekend. If it is borderline, I'll wing it, but if there is (as I believe) virtually nothing in there, I WILL feed.... based on advice above.

You have all been warned!!

 

[JamezF]

Many will know about the recent sudden stratospheric warming event over the Arctic, and the possibility, at least, of a proper cold snap / Beast from the East.

I've not caught up with this for a few weeks. Last time I read about it the meteorologists appeared to be saying "We know the SSW event is happening, but we don't know where in the world it might have an effect nor even what sort of effect it might have if it does". Which didn't strike me as particularly informative. Has that view now changed?

The Met Office forecast for next week for here doesn't seem that concerning either -- slightly colder than the average, perhaps some snow, but gradually warming up, so much the same as many early March periods have been yet completely different from others. And in fact much the same as it's been here for the last week.

James

 

[madasafish]

The inspector was out due to an EFB outbreak in the locality.

She went through every frame on the two 14x12 hives in the same garden apiary (which were both clear). I suppose that, when we got to the Warre, there was probably a high degree of confidence that there was no apiary issue. Furthermore, from the state of the brood comb lifted from that one bar, it was clear (and would have been, even to a novice) that there was no brood disease.

She probably should have pulled every bar... but I appreciated the pragmatic approach. I am a great believer in the spirit of the law trumping the letter of the law...

... your worship

She SHOULD have pulled every bar.

I speak from bitter experience.
When my colonies had AFB in 2015 , every comb was inspected. Two colonies had only one cell of AFB affected brood. Infections start with a few cells only.

All infected colonies were of course destroyed and combs burned etc.

AN absence of disease on 99% of colonies does NOT mean the next has not been infected.

I ran 1 x warre and 5 x TBHs then plus two Langs then

 

[boywonder]

I've not caught up with this for a few weeks. Last time I read about it the meteorologists appeared to be saying "We know the SSW event is happening, but we don't know where in the world it might have an effect nor even what sort of effect it might have if it does". Which didn't strike me as particularly informative. Has that view now changed?

The Met Office forecast for next week for here doesn't seem that concerning either -- slightly colder than the average, perhaps some snow, but gradually warming up, so much the same as many early March periods have been yet completely different from others. And in fact much the same as it's been here for the last week.

James

Until now, Met Office have only been signalling low degrees of certainty / average temperatures. Now, they are coming into line and signalling a higher degree of probability, lower than average temperatures and snow.

I have our local Oracle Phil Morrish, who never calls it early, and (whilst an amateur meteorologist) does work for the local press. If Phil says, it happens - invariably. He says beware.

A bit like Punxsutawney Phil.

So, yes, reading the runes, it has changed. Until now, you are right - there has been no certainty about where the cold air displaced by the SSW would move to.... Now it does look like we will bear the brunt.

Forewarned is forearmed, anyway.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I suppose that, when we got to the Warre, there was probably a high degree of confidence that there was no apiary issue. Furthermore, from the state of the brood comb lifted from that one bar, it was clear (and would have been, even to a novice) that there was no brood disease.

That was poor practice on the SBI's behalf - I've hear of an apiary with foulbrood confirmed after the RBI found one cell showing signs of foulbrood

 

[Nige.Coll]

If I don't feed them they will die.
If I do feed them they will live.
That's not even a question in my mind.

 

[boywonder]

If I don't feed them they will die.
If I do feed them they will live.
That's not even a question in my mind.

Hi Nigel... If I don't feed them, they might die. They might not. Indeed, if they've packed away enough for the the winter and are healthy and frugal bees, they should not (?).

In that, you will doubtless understand that I'm looking at this through the lens of a hobbyist dabbling in some sustainable beekeeping.

Obviously, if, on closer inspection this weekend, it becomes apparent that they will starve, I will of course feed them, as it's cruel and pointless to let them die if it's a clear inevitability.

 

[Sutty]

Hi Nigel... If I don't feed them, they might die. They might not. Indeed, if they've packed away enough for the the winter and are healthy and frugal bees, they should not (?).

In that, you will doubtless understand that I'm looking at this through the lens of a hobbyist dabbling in some sustainable beekeeping.

Obviously, if, on closer inspection this weekend, it becomes apparent that they will starve, I will of course feed them, as it's cruel and pointless to let them die if it's a clear inevitability.

The real problem if they are very light is that they go from ok to dead so quickly, especially in cold conditions.
I hope you don't leave it too late.

 

[Nige.Coll]

Hi Nigel... If I don't feed them, they might die. They might not. Indeed, if they've packed away enough for the the winter and are healthy and frugal bees, they should not (?).

In that, you will doubtless understand that I'm looking at this through the lens of a hobbyist dabbling in some sustainable beekeeping.

Obviously, if, on closer inspection this weekend, it becomes apparent that they will starve, I will of course feed them, as it's cruel and pointless to let them die if it's a clear inevitability.

If the hive is very light then it begs the question what have they done with the stores being frugal bees, last year was a great year for honey.
If no honey was taken then they should have filled the hive and had more than enough to last the winter.
The late honey flow continued for quite some time balsam and ivy just kept going and other plants had a second flowering.

I was given colonies that had been left alone since June, 5 had the honey removed in late August 1 didn't, and no autumn feed. Out of the 5, 3 have needed fondant the 6th hive has 4 full supers still on it. None were treated and all are alive.

I have hives that filled 2 supers after September and have not had to feed them. Come spring I will be removing stores from a lot of colonies. I used very little feed last year, the nucs I made in August had the most and they are still very heavy.

We have had a very mild winter with a few cold spells, nothing like winters used to be.
If the bees in that hive didn't manage to gather enough stores throughout the year to get through winter are they suited to the environment?
If that is the case maybe letting them die is a benefit as they won't spread their genetics.
Last year was a great year for honey, they certainly wouldn't survive a bad year or a bad winter.

Some bees are just crap bees without human intervention they would just die.

 

[Sutty]

If the hive is very light then it begs the question what have they done with the stores being frugal bees, last year was a great year for honey.
If no honey was taken then they should have filled the hive and had more than enough to last the winter.
The late honey flow continued for quite some time balsam and ivy just kept going and other plants had a second flowering.

I was given colonies that had been left alone since June, 5 had the honey removed in late August 1 didn't, and no autumn feed. Out of the 5, 3 have needed fondant the 6th hive has 4 full supers still on it. None were treated and all are alive.

I have hives that filled 2 supers after September and have not had to feed them. Come spring I will be removing stores from a lot of colonies. I used very little feed last year, the nucs I made in August had the most and they are still very heavy.

We have had a very mild winter with a few cold spells, nothing like winters used to be.
If the bees in that hive didn't manage to gather enough stores throughout the year to get through winter are they suited to the environment?
If that is the case maybe letting them die is a benefit as they won't spread their genetics.
Last year was a great year for honey, they certainly wouldn't survive a bad year or a bad winter.

Some bees are just crap bees without human intervention they would just die.

Of course a mild winter may be worse for some bees as they spend more time out of cluster and consume more stores, putting them at a higher risk of starvation.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Of course a mild winter may be worse for some bees as they spend more time out of cluster and consume more stores, putting them at a higher risk of starvation.

Only if they are brooding.
Bees not in a tight cluster use fewer stores keeping active than bees in a tight cluster trying to keep “warm”