Virgin queens?

[sharonh]

How long after a virgin queens hatches, would a colony swarm, throw a cast, if additional q cells present and original queen is gone.
Is she able to fly straight away?
Sharon


Love Beekeeping <3

 

[oliver90owner]

Welll, probably not at all if emerging from an emergency cell.

Not immediately if emerging after a prime swarm, but may be dependent on the stage of development of any other emerging queens. House bees only fly at around four days, but they are not nurtured and controlled like emerging queens are.

Usually say a week later for a clipped swarm to go, but that seems a bit optimistic if a week is 7.0 days, and not just closer to one week than two (in mathematical terms, normally less than 1.5 is counted as one and 1.5 or above is regarded as two when talking of 'round' numbers).

Having to be a bit careful here, or the pedant policeman might jump in.

To be sure she will not emerge, naturally on her own without warder bee attention keeping her in the cell, and then fly away immediately afterwards.

Of course, you should have said 'could', not 'would' in your post. She may not form a cast and may simply terminate the other developing queens.

Hope I am not being tooo specific and overly precise with my answer, but you never know who is looking for the teeniest error.

RAB

 

[bontbee]

Eeerm, I can offer another experience. Not a natural situation, granted, but queens can fly straight out of the cell....It happened to me in my early days, pulled a comb with 16 queen cells out of a hive. The "warder" workers must have been holding queens in their cells, as about 8 or 9 queens emerged at the same time. I could only watch in surprise with my jaw on the floor and see what developed. Some were on a mission to hunt out their rivals, with the resultant carnage, but at least three took off to disappear out of the apiary and out of sight. Don't know how far they flew, of course, but certainly would made swarm "perching" distances.

 

[sharonh]

Welll, probably not at all if emerging from an emergency cell.

Not immediately if emerging after a prime swarm, but may be dependent on the stage of development of any other emerging queens. House bees only fly at around four days, but they are not nurtured and controlled like emerging queens are.

Usually say a week later for a clipped swarm to go, but that seems a bit optimistic if a week is 7.0 days, and not just closer to one week than two (in mathematical terms, normally less than 1.5 is counted as one and 1.5 or above is regarded as two when talking of 'round' numbers).

Having to be a bit careful here, or the pedant policeman might jump in.

To be sure she will not emerge, naturally on her own without warder bee attention keeping her in the cell, and then fly away immediately afterwards.

Of course, you should have said 'could', not 'would' in your post. She may not form a cast and may simply terminate the other developing queens.

Hope I am not being tooo specific and overly precise with my answer, but you never know who is looking for the teeniest error.

RAB

Thanks RAB,
Books don't give any information on this. They tell of the original queen leaving when first q cell is sealed, but not on the virgin queen, when she is ready to leave or could if more q cells.
Sharon


Love Beekeeping <3

 

[beeno]

Hi Sharonh,
Very interesting question Sharonh, we have had one case on here where first cast went 7 days after prime swarm. This would appear to indicate that she flew as soon as she emerged i.e. 9 + 7 = 16 followed by three more casts one the following day + 2 following couple of days as I recall. First cast queen out either fights or flees is the theory what the determinant is would be interesting to know.

 

[oliver90owner]

9 + 7 = 16

Maths is right, numbers are rubbish.

Cherry-picking from some potentially uninformed poster or not having all the facts to hand can easily be wrongly interpreted by some and then presented (like in this example) as prima facie evidence. I don't buy it unless I see the evidence and it is clearly substantiated by supporting evidence.

Seen to many posts where someone has written 'I read somewhere....' and it has turned out to be a load of tosh.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

This would appear to indicate that she flew as soon as she emerged

Or that the prime swarm was delayed from leaving the hive meaning QC's had been sealed days before they went, or maybe the Pope had abolished Friday that week because he didn't fancy fish so we skipped a day or............... as RAB here flawed reasoning I'm afraid.
As we know - assumption is the brother of all f...... (can't remember where I read than now)

 

[Outlander]

Hi Sharonh,
Very interesting question Sharonh, we have had one case on here where first cast went 7 days after prime swarm. This would appear to indicate that she flew as soon as she emerged i.e. 9 + 7 = 16 followed by three more casts one the following day + 2 following couple of days as I recall. First cast queen out either fights or flees is the theory what the determinant is would be interesting to know.

So that made 7. So if you have one which is the prime swarm and two being a cast the next a colt then a filly, what are the next few to go called? Just interested

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

So that made 7. So if you have one which is the prime swarm and two being a cast the next a colt then a filly, what are the next few to go called? Just interested

Forlorn hopes I think!

 

[Outlander]

I think by 7 it would be called empty.

 

[Finman]

.
When I have compared visually a normal Queen hatching, it seems to me that a Virgin gets its "dry" appearance in 2 days.

Swarming virgins stay Inside the Queen cells untill the cast leaves. Most Are then ready to fly, but usually only one goes With swarm..

Normal queens may emerge as very soft/white or more hardened.

 

[beeno]

Hi all,
As with all theories cateris paribus applies - otherwise there would be no theoris. Annoying isn't it. Finman, I am very interested in pigmentation changes that occur in virgins. Have you got any pictures or could you supply any research that supports this. In the UK this applies to a period when we are not allowed to open the hives, so very little seems to be known about it. Ladybirds as a matter of interest starts off yellow before hardening.

 

[Ben90]

First cast queen out either fights or flees is the theory what the determinant is would be interesting to know.

From what I've read regarding the current scientific understanding, certain pheromone ratios in the colony help to decide - foragers produce different pheromones to nurse bees, if there's enough foragers relative to the nurses then a cast will usually leave.

 

[Finman]

In the UK this applies to a period when we are not allowed to open the hives, so very little seems to .

Amen

 

[Finman]

From what I've read regarding the current scientific understanding, certain pheromone ratios in the colony help to decide - foragers produce different pheromones to nurse bees, if there's enough foragers relative to the nurses then a cast will usually leave.

Oh no. Bee swarming System is so that first swarm Leaves With old Queen when First Queen cells Are capped. Second swarm Leaves after a week when Queen cells start to emerge. Foragers do not select swarming day because it has been selected 2 weeks ago. It just happens.

Foragers go almost All With First swarm and new foragers Will not appear much in one week. Mother Give is quite Silent after swarming.

 

[Teemore]

...and don't forget the times when the prime swarm exits when the QCs only contain larvae.... I lost a good Queen (and a fair number of bees) from what was shaping up into a really good production hive in a scenario like that last year. That prompted me to start clipping my queens.

Ben90, Mark Winston's book "The Biology of the Honey Bee" makes some reference to the composition of swarms. Its not too bad a read and I am dipping in and out of it when I get time.

 

[sharonh]

Thanks everyone for your insights into this.
Very interesting indeed.
Why I ask this question is very simple.

One of my colony's swarmed Thursday June 5th. Clipped queen which as couldn't fly, climbed up wind break fabric which is stapled around my hive hive. She settled with bees under landing board, but majority of the swarm ended up behind the fabric, underneath hive floor. When I knocked them off into a box, saw the queen, so up turned the box with stone under one corner until that evening., when they were re homed in a poly nuc with new frames, along with frame of brood. They are all settled now & happy. The other bees ended up having to go back to the hive as I couldn't get them out from behind the wind fabric as stapled in place.
So most of prime swarm had to go back into hive where they came from. Checked hive and saw brood & eggs. Sealed cells in which decided just to leave one.
Went back 4 days later June 8th, and they had several more cells, capped & uncapped. Had to abort due to very aggressive guard bees. Weather also un favorable, thunder storms with localized down pours.
Capped cell that I left June 5th ,if viable would have hatched yesterday June 12th or today.
I put a swarm trap on yesterday morning, it attaches to entrance. Q excluder door that I have to close at 10 am & re open at 3pm. Bees can work away but if swarm issues, it traps queen.
So more queens would be due to hatch within next 4 days. So my plan was, catch the swarm, put new brood brood in original spot & get all flying bees back in there.





Love Beekeeping <3

 

[Tdf]

...and don't forget the times when the prime swarm exits when the QCs only contain larvae.... I lost a good Queen (and a fair number of bees) from what was shaping up into a really good production hive in a scenario like that last year. That prompted me to start clipping my queens.

Ben90, Mark Winston's book "The Biology of the Honey Bee" makes some reference to the composition of swarms. Its not too bad a read and I am dipping in and out of it when I get time.

don't forget when a queen leaves with no eggs, larvae or q cells as well

 

[Ben90]

Oh no. Bee swarming System is so that first swarm Leaves With old Queen when First Queen cells Are capped. Second swarm Leaves after a week when Queen cells start to emerge. Foragers do not select swarming day because it has been selected 2 weeks ago. It just happens.

Foragers go almost All With First swarm and new foragers Will not appear much in one week. Mother Give is quite Silent after swarming.

Onset of foraging in a worker is plastic and variable depending on the balance of the workforce in the colony. A colony that has a depleted foraging force will have nurses becoming foragers earlier than they otherwise would. It's well documented in the scientific literature.

 

[sharonh]

Thanks everyone for your insights into this.
Very interesting indeed.
Why I ask this question is very simple.

One of my colony's swarmed Thursday June 5th. Clipped queen which as couldn't fly, climbed up wind break fabric which is stapled around my hive hive. She settled with bees under landing board, but majority of the swarm ended up behind the fabric, underneath hive floor. When I knocked them off into a box, saw the queen, so up turned the box with stone under one corner until that evening., when they were re homed in a poly nuc with new frames, along with frame of brood. They are all settled now & happy. The other bees ended up having to go back to the hive as I couldn't get them out from behind the wind fabric as stapled in place.
So most of prime swarm had to go back into hive where they came from. Checked hive and saw brood & eggs. Sealed cells in which decided just to leave one.
Went back 4 days later June 8th, and they had several more cells, capped & uncapped. Had to abort due to very aggressive guard bees. Weather also un favorable, thunder storms with localized down pours.
Capped cell that I left June 5th ,if viable would have hatched yesterday June 12th or today.
I put a swarm trap on yesterday morning, it attaches to entrance. Q excluder door that I have to close at 10 am & re open at 3pm. Bees can work away but if swarm issues, it traps queen.
So more queens would be due to hatch within next 4 days. So my plan was, catch the swarm, put new brood brood in original spot & get all flying bees back in there.





Love Beekeeping <3

Update from above.
No cast swarm has issued, so I guess a queen may have ripped down all other q cells.
After original queen swarmed June 5th,I left one q cell which if viable would have hatched June 13th.
I checked hive four days later for additional q cells but had to abort due to weather & contrary bees but yes there were several more capped & charged q cells. So the capped would be due to hatch 17th.
Have kept swarm trap on each day, incase of a cast swarm but none to date.
No loss of bees & very busy.
My question is, would they have issued a cast swarm by now if going to, or would it be a safe bet to say that one virgin queen has ripped down the other cells and killed the others that have hatched ?


Love Beekeeping <3