Varroa

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Thinking aloud, one successful strategy the mite could adopt would be to carry fewer viruses. But I'm hoping now. I haven't seen a lot of research in this general area so I hope someone is working on it.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Thinking aloud, one successful strategy the mite could adopt would be to carry fewer viruses.

And another successful strategy for the viruses could be if they become less virulent.

 

[Tom Bick]

The varroa that carry’s more viruses will put their host at risk and perhaps kill the thing it needs to survive but the varroa that carry fewer or even no viruses perhaps happy days for that varroa.

Also the varroa that produces 3-4 young every brood cycle against the varroa that produces 2.

Perhaps pie in the sky who knows but nature is funny like that.

 

[mbc]

And another successful strategy for the viruses could be if they become less virulent.

I'm trying to work out if thats an oxymoron ?

There are already areas in the UK where bees survive along with varroa without treating, no ones sure if its the bees that are hardened, the varroa less aggressive, the virus' more benign, or all of these to greater or lesser extents. What is certain is that a common feature of the areas where this happens is stability, no large influxes of different bees, varroa and other pathogens. Queens from these apparently "resistant" hives still go down to varroa related issues when they are parachuted into other areas.
Another common feature, of course, is that people have not treated their bees in these areas.

 

[pargyle]

Well ... I'm one of the 'volunteers' and I'm treatment free this year but this was a measured decision (I'm a pragmatist ... if I had found any significant sign of varroa then I would have considered treatment) as I have done sugar rolls, alcohol washes, drone cell uncapping, I've had a sticky tray in all season and with clear crown boards I've spent a fair bit of time watching upside down bees. The only mites I've seen was when I sugar rolled the swarm as I put them into the hive in June and then there were just a couple of mites on the board.

I don't know if:

A. I'm just lucky
B. The bees are hygienic
C. The bees are antisocial in terms of meeting other bees and are not 'robbers'
D. My well insulated and warm hive with an OMF has discouraged varroa breeding
E. My foundationless regime has assisted
F. The swarm had been treated well before I got it or bred for their ability to resist varroa
G. The large numbers of drones I have had in the hive has discouraged visits from other drones

or something else ... I now have a large and strong colony (13 seams of bees from a small swarm in June) they look very healthy, they are extremely good natured and have a hive full of stores (which I have left them with for the winter). I fed them initially when they were comb building and again after the 'August gap' when it seemed they were consuming more than they were storing. Other than that there is nothing that has gone into the hive other than what the bees have brought in.

There are, according to Beebase, over 180 apiaries within a 5 Km radius and I am aware that there were plenty of varroa infested hives within my Association so the odds are that there are varroa in my location.

Am I dillusional ? - well, I don't think so, if there were mites in my colony the amount of testing I have done would have found them. Am I antisocial ? - certainly not, my bees are not spreading varroa ... at the moment.

Only time will tell, there is, clearly a risk and I would never suggest going treatment free unless you were very confident that you do not have an infestation or you have enough colonies to cope with the potential losses.

There is nothing else that I can do now but sit tight and hope that next year will be the same. Unless something dramatic happens I certainly won't be doing Oxalic in mid winter.

There are a number of pioneers out there and I know of a few in my area that are also going treatment free, but the whipping you get from some quarters, when you even mention not treating makes people a little reluctant to 'come out'. I know I'm a novice but that doesn't mean that I haven't the necessary knowledge to asess the situation and make a considered decision. But it's becoming almost a closet situation ....

 

[Aggravated]

The biggest problem to my mind regarding the Varroa is if it attacks the Queen, and she dies, then this will really stress the colony, particularly at the end of the season when making a new queen may not be feasible

 

[pargyle]

The biggest problem to my mind regarding the Varroa is if it attacks the Queen, and she dies, then this will really stress the colony, particularly at the end of the season when making a new queen may not be feasible

Whilst it happens it is one of those very rare things, mites are not normally seen attached to a queen ... generally you would only see it in a heavily infested or crowded hive where the pressure to find host bees is strong. Under normal circumstances the attendant bees would probably groom off any mites trying to attach to a queen.

I think you may have bigger things to worry about than this eventuality if it happens !

Also bear in mind that it is not the varroa mite that kills, it is the vectored disease that they spread when feeding on the host ... like mosquitos spread malaria.

 

[The Drone Ranger]

malaria has been around a very long time and humans haven't evolved a defence
Partly that is because our body would try to defend against the blood parasite
Hence the unfortunate effect of selecting in favour of Sickle cell which is not ideal
The real enemy is the mosquito but instead of natural selection for rhinoceros hide skin
We have natural selection for a life shortening and damaging blood defect

Just something to think about
Also it's not necessary to survive a lethal level of infestation to develop resistance
Just the presence of a parasite or infection will stimulate a response from the host

There is another thread discussing the cost of buying a hive of bees and comparing that to the cost of a few pence for treatment I can only wish those pioneers well.
Particularly anyone with one hive because it's not just the cost of replacement but sometimes bees are just not available

 

[pargyle]

There is another thread discussing the cost of buying a hive of bees and comparing that to the cost of a few pence for treatment I can only wish those pioneers well.
Particularly anyone with one hive because it's not just the cost of replacement but sometimes bees are just not available

Thank you ... it's not about cost with me ... it's more about the principle of ... if there is no evidence of the malady then I don't think treatment is necessary ... I don't take pencillin when I don't have an infection and I don't treat my dog for fleas when he doesn't have any.

So ... if the bees (as they appear to be in my hive) are surviving and thriving with no signs of varroa then isn't it right to give them the opportunity to continue without dousing them with chemicals, acid or aromatics ?

I am not on a crusade to convert the beekeeping world ... I'm doing it on a personal 'I think it's the right course of action at the moment' philosophy. If I live to regret it ... well, there's a long list of things to add it to ! 'It seemed like a good idea at the time' should probably be my middle name !!

However, IF it works again in Year 2 and Year 3 ... that's another matter !

 

[The Drone Ranger]

Best of luck with it it will probably be fine pargyle
Don't suppose next year though your bees will be any more resistant than they were going into winter
I'm not an evangelist either

I would advise you take some protection against malaria though if you are travelling

 

[Norfolk]

malaria has been around a very long time and humans haven't evolved a defence
Partly that is because our body would try to defend against the blood parasite
Hence the unfortunate effect of selecting in favour of Sickle cell which is not ideal
The real enemy is the mosquito but instead of natural selection for rhinoceros hide skin

Makes perfect sense to me.

 

[pargyle]

Best of luck with it it will probably be fine pargyle
Don't suppose next year though your bees will be any more resistant than they were going into winter
I'm not an evangelist either

I would advise you take some protection against malaria though if you are travelling

Done my time in Africa ... wouldn't be without the Chloroquine for malaria or the Yellow Fever jabs or the Hepatitis jabs or the Rabies jabs or the Typhoid jabs ... plus the updating of the 'usual' ones.

However, I did find after a few years that I was getting side effects from some of the jabs ... prolonged cough and asmthatic conditions ... never did manage to find out which ... not been there for about 20 years now so worn off ... but it makes you wonder ?

 

[The Drone Ranger]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/...feVMCQ/edit?authkey=CP2F0pIK&authkey=CP2F0pIK
Hi pargyle I don't know if the link to google drive will work but if it does there will be a stacked bar graph of 22 hives from Winter 2008/9
Some of those which might have showed next to no drop still had a fair amount of varroa
Winter is the most effective time to treat and after 2 cycles of oxalic using the evaporator most of the varroa were gone
Collecting all the data in the horrible Winter weather wasn't much fun but it does give a better picture of what was going on. You can zoom in 200% on google for a clearer view
Apologies to anyone I have bored with this stuff before

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

https://docs.google.com/document/d/...feVMCQ/edit?authkey=CP2F0pIK&authkey=CP2F0pIK
Hi pargyle I don't know if the link to google drive will work but if it does there will be a stacked bar graph of 22 hives from Winter 2008/9
Some of those which might have showed next to no drop still had a fair amount of varroa
Winter is the most effective time to treat and after 2 cycles of oxalic using the evaporator most of the varroa were gone
Collecting all the data in the horrible Winter weather wasn't much fun but it does give a better picture of what was going on. You can zoom in 200% on google for a clearer view
Apologies to anyone I have bored with this stuff before

Great data: thanks. Did you do anything about brood during the October/November treatments?

 

[TOBY-3652]

Treating is simple and inexpensive so why

he lost 3 colonies out of 40 last year no treatment.. i lost 7 out of 17 so who is wrong and who is right

 

[Tom Bick]

Interesting TDR just out of interest did you monitor the drop during the apistan.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Great data: thanks. Did you do anything about brood during the October/November treatments?

You don't remove any brood if present - you just treat - it's still effective on the phoretic mites, just the ones in the brood survive (same as Apiguard really)

 

[TOBY-3652]

But letting nature take sole charge of your breeding programme (i.e. survival of the fittest) may create problems as well as solve them. I would bet the bees you end up with would never produce you a single pound of surplus honey. Who would bother to keep bees like that?

he had about the same amount of honey per hive as me... one thing i will say is he has never bought a queen in and they are all very dark bees.. no gingers.

 

[Dishmop]

Treating is simple and inexpensive so why ?

Do you take paracetamol for no reason?

You dont know that your bees will die if you dont treat them........you believe they will because that is what you have been told.....

in fact there is quite a lot of evidence that they will not die if you dont treat them.........why? because when a colony dies I doubt that many beeks send samples for testing and even if they do the answer will not determine that varroa killed them.
When a colony dies out, where do the varroa go?

 

[Hivemaker.]

because when a colony dies I doubt that many beeks send samples for testing and even if they do the answer will not determine that varroa killed them.

I would bet if it could, it would be due to one or more of the three biggest killers of bees that we have in this country.
Varroa.
Nosema ceranae.
"Beekeepers".