varoa treatment

[Finman]

.
It was researshed in Germany, that totally clean hives get a good amount of mites from surroundings even if the distance is couple of kilometres to nearest hives.

 

[pargyle]

The reason for age stucture is the history. After winter cluster is small, and then there is a period when old are all dead and all are young. Huge amount of young bees emerge every day.

Then comes swarming time. Hive is full or young bees. Hive bees are under 3 weeks old.

Then a swarm leaves, and you see it that foragers have leaved too. Not much traffic in hive next day. And if ypu hsve hive on balance, weight rise stops for long time.

Second swarm has more young bees, because older bees left mainly with primary swarm.

But during that time mites have normal cycle to capped brood and out with emerged bees.
.

Goodness ... I keep agreeing with Finman - the end of the world must be nigh ?

 

[Finman]

Goodness ... I keep agreeing with Finman - the end of the world must be nigh ?

You have lost nothing from youself, actually.

 

[Dishmop]

The reason for age stucture is the history. After winter cluster is small, and then there is a period when old are all dead and all are young. Huge amount of young bees emerge every day.

Then comes swarming time. Hive is full or young bees. Hive bees are under 3 weeks old.

Then a swarm leaves, and you see it that foragers have leaved too. Not much traffic in hive next day. And if ypu hsve hive on balance, weight rise stops for long time.

Second swarm has more young bees, because older bees left mainly with primary swarm.

But during that time mites have normal cycle to capped brood and out with emerged bees.
.

Thats very good..................short and to the point and far easier to understand than what we read in books...

 

[masterBK]

While quite a few older bees do go with a prime swarm ( particularly scout bees to guide the rest) many of them return to the original hive once the swarm has found a new home. The majority of workers in a swarm are younger bees (up to 70% less than 10 days old according to Winston page 186)

 

[itma]

... But, the reality is that the only mites you get in a swarm are the phoretic ones and the bees that leave the hive in a swarm tend to be principally the foragers and varroa mites prefer to live on the back of nurse bees where they can be ready to nip into a soon to be sealed brood cell. So ... it is a bit unusual to find a swarm riddled with varroa.
...

Update your idea of swarm age distribution and then you are on exactly the right lines to understand that a swarm can have more than a few mites.
Rarely "riddled" but not free of varroa. (As explained above, casts may have distinctly more.)

Swarms from unknown sources are probably best treated 'on spec' for varroa.
Well that's my call anyway. Not essential, but good practice. Time to do it would be after they have moved in and started drawing comb (so they are committed to staying), but before there is any sealed brood (to shelter the varroa) - and you don't want the treatment to interfere with a cast's Q's mating flight ...
As always, folks can make up their own minds, but it is worth thinking it through, carefully.

 

[pargyle]

As always, folks can make up their own minds, but it is worth thinking it through, carefully.

As always in beekeeping - more than one answer and more than one solution. Folks, as you say, should think and make their own minds up ... what did Bernard Mobius say 'Bees do nothing invariably' - how true this little polysemous gem of the English language is. Every day on here we see reports of something that contradicts the recognised status quo.

The key to varroa treatment (IMHO) at any time and in any situation is to know that they need it first and foremost (and I recognise that as a non-treater for the last few years I am just a little prejudiced) and then, if the varroa load requires treatment use an appropriate method. At present, again in my humble opinion, the most effective, least invasive and most able to be used at virtually any time of the year is OA sublimation.

I would not consider treating a caste, even if they were riddled with varroa until the queen was seen to be laying and then treat as soon as possible after that - although a dusting with icing sugar, as they were being hived, would knock down some of the mites that came with them. (Yes - I've heard all the comments about icing sugar best kept for cake making but this is one instance where there are very few other safe options available).

A short frame inserted in the hive of a newly hived swarm would yield some drone cells on the bottom of it and I would tend to use this as a varroa trap and cull that section of drone brood once it was capped - which should reduce the mite load significantly.

 

[Nige.Coll]

Last year I compared a natural swarm with an artificial swarm carried out using the pagden method.
The difference in ability to draw comb was quite large. Both colonies were around the same size and both had 1 frame of drawn comb and 10 frames of foundation.
The natural swarm drew all frames out far quicker than the AS.

I read that the wax glands work from around 12 days and when they become foragers their wax glands start to shut down.
I came to the conclusion that a natural swarm cannot only contain older foragers it must contain younger bees aswell due to the speed they drew out the comb.

This year I'm working on increasing my stock of drawn comb as this should help with AS colony build up.

 

[Finman]

Iyxiyx

 

[Finman]

.
What is young bees and old bees? How many weeks? I think that they are hive bees.

Swarms have very different speed how they draw combs.
Some AS draw next night foundationd half way and some do not even start.

Funny thing is that a colony in swarming fever does not even touch foundations in old hive, but everything shanges when they get a new home.

I have noticed too, that perhaps 1/3 of those AS, where I give ready combs, colony continues swarming fever and starts to rear swarming cells.
Foundation drawing polishes swarming fever allways off.

 

[Erichalfbee]

While quite a few older bees do go with a prime swarm............................
many of them return to the original hive once the swarm has found a new home.

I never knew that.
How fascinating......Thanks mBK for that gem

 

[maddydog]

.

Funny thing is that a colony in swarming fever does not even touch foundations in old hive, but everything shanges when they get a new home.

I have noticed too, that perhaps 1/3 of those AS, where I give ready combs, colony continues swarming fever and starts to rear swarming cells.
Foundation drawing polishes swarming fever allways off.

Excellent. Almost as if a swarm is programmed to produce wax but only after the swarming event. That makes sense given the required task.

Very interesting if the swarm somehow manages to selectively recruit wax producing individuals.

 

[masterBK]

Pargyle suggests : A short frame inserted in the hive of a newly hived swarm would yield some drone cells on the bottom of it and I would tend to use this as a varroa trap and cull that section of drone brood once it was capped - which should reduce the mite load significantly.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As any experienced beekeeper knows the majority of swarms are reluctant to produce drone comb when hived so Pargyles suggestion unlikely to work. You could try giving them a comb of uncapped drone brood from another colony as a sacrificial comb. I have treated dozens of cast swarms with oxalic over the last few years and not had any problems with virgin queens getting balled, not getting mated or absconding. Maybe I have just been lucky. If a swarm is going to abscond it usually does it within hours of it being hived although sometimes they abscond over the next two days (so I insert an excluder for a couple of days between floor and broodchamber to stop them).

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

what did Bernard Mobius say 'Bees do nothing invariably' -

Sort of - he must have been quoting Manley who mentioned it in 'Beekeeping in Britain' but even Manley attributed it to someone else - a prolific lady writer in beekeeping magazines in the 1020's

You'll be telling us next that Einstein said that if all the bees die we wouldn't be long after

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I never knew that.
How fascinating......Thanks mBK for that gem

I knew that the makeup of a swarm was more young bees (needed for wax drawing and brooding) but didn't realise older ones went back to the hive after.

 

[beeno]

Hi masterBK,
I have witnessed two way traffic between one of my swarms in a nearby tree and the parent hive in my garden. Would this have been foragers returning in favour of young bees joining the swarm too? There was a lot of fanning at the hive entrance.

 

[Finman]

Hi masterBK,
I have witnessed two way traffic between one of my swarms in a nearby tree and the parent hive in my garden. Would this have been foragers returning in favour of young bees joining the swarm too? There was a lot of fanning at the hive entrance.

Part of swarm is returning to the hive. Somehow they were not satisfied with departure. Nothing to do with foragers. Many things happen. I have seen same many times.

 

[Finman]

As any experienced beekeeper knows the majority of swarms are reluctant to produce drone comb when hived so Pargyles suggestion unlikely to work. You could try giving them a comb of uncapped drone brood from another colony as a sacrificial comb. ).

Mites go as well into worker cells because they have not alternative.

But it is easier to use oxalic acid. It affects better than larvae.

 

[pargyle]

Pargyle suggests : A short frame inserted in the hive of a newly hived swarm would yield some drone cells on the bottom of it and I would tend to use this as a varroa trap and cull that section of drone brood once it was capped - which should reduce the mite load significantly.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As any experienced beekeeper knows the majority of swarms are reluctant to produce drone comb when hived so Pargyles suggestion unlikely to work. You could try giving them a comb of uncapped drone brood from another colony as a sacrificial comb.

Well .. I hate to fly in the face of someone with your experience ... but it happened in the swarm I started with .. perhaps by the time they got down to the bottom of the foundationless frame building out comb they decided it was time to put some drone cells in there ? And the queen obliged ? Like everything in beekeeping there's always an exception ...

 

[pargyle]

- a prolific lady writer in beekeeping magazines in the 1020's

Ahh ... must have been celtic beekeeper prior to the Norman conquest then ?

You'll be telling us next that Einstein said that if all the bees die we wouldn't be long after

Even I don't believe that quote - indeed, even Einstein didn't believe it !!