uniting 3 colonies

[Sianerw]

I would appreciate your help in trying to solve this!
I have 3 hives
1. QR on brood and a half. 5 frames of brood bottom box, 4 top shallow frames.The queen is 4 this season ( if not superceded end of season)
2. Weak colony on single brood . I think the queen was probably superceded end of last summer and new queen failed to mate. I suspect a dud queen as they didn't make queen cells with frame of eggs from hive 1 six days ago.. They are also piling in pollen, polishing cells and are quite placid.
3. Was QR on April 24, 3 year old queen, on 1 deep brood box. They were a bit nasty then, but 11 days later( May 5) they were queenless, 2 small Q cells, and a bit nastier. I can only assume that it was my fault, must have accidentaly killed the queen. Which wasn't a bad thing maybe considering their location and aggression. BUT, I made up a nuc with 1 queen cell and left them with the other! Stupid thing to do with bees with undesirable genetics!

So what to do? My idea is to unite everything and make 1 colony, then if they are strong enough later on, make up a nuc with a bought in queen. Also requeen the old queen in hive 1. No honey this year I suppose, but last 2 seasons have been good.
Thanks in advance!

 

[Antipodes]

They are also piling in pollen, polishing cells and are quite placid

Can you please take a photo of the cells and the pollen and post on here?

 

[Antipodes]

BUT, I made up a nuc with 1 queen cell and left them with the other!

How old do you think the queen cells were? Were they capped when you performed the actions on the 5th?

 

[Sianerw]

Can you please take a photo of the cells and the pollen and post on here?

Will do this afternoon. Thank you!

 

[Sianerw]

How old do you think the queen cells were? Were they capped when you performed the actions on the 5th?

Yes they were capped. So by now queens should have emerged.I wish now that I'd thought of uniting with my best (but not great ) colony and removed the cells. Hindsight is so great! Thank you again.

 

[Anduril]

For 2. and 3. I would have combined them and removed all queen cells and queens that you can find, then either buy a queen or add a frame of eggs and larvae from the strong hive once you know they are definitely queenless. You still have one strong hive. Or take frames of bias from the strong queen make a nuc adding frames of stores and buy a queen to introduce. Then you can combine that with 2. and 3. once both are queenless.

 

[Sianerw]

Can you please take a photo of the cells and the pollen and post on here?

About 2 or 3 frames like this. Forgot about the polished cells sorry! Also nectar coming in. Bottom box empty aprt from 1 frame with small amount of pollen and nectar.

 

[Sianerw]

Yes they were capped. So by now queens should have emerged.I wish now that I'd thought of uniting with my best (but not great ) colony and removed the cells. Hindsight is so great! Thank you again.

How old do you think the queen cells were? Were they capped when you performed the actions on the 5th?

Had a look in the nuc box - this is what

For 2. and 3. I would have combined them and removed all queen cells and queens that you can find, then either buy a queen or add a frame of eggs and larvae from the strong hive once you know they are definitely queenless. You still have one strong hive. Or take frames of bias from the strong queen make a nuc adding frames of stores and buy a queen to introduce. Then you can combine that with 2. and 3. once both are queenless.

yes, that would have been sensible I know. Sometimes I make rash decisions when inspecting the hives! I did think however of buying in a queen, but would prefer to get a local one ( too early)rather than imported. But perhaps I'm being too pedantic here? I think your first suggestion might be the way to go, only thing perhaps I'd have 3 queens to find and I'm pretty bad at spotting them! Thank you very much for your reply.

 

[Antipodes]

Had a look in the nuc box - this is what

yes, that would have been sensible I know. Sometimes I make rash decisions when inspecting the hives! I did think however of buying in a queen, but would prefer to get a local one ( too early)rather than imported. But perhaps I'm being too pedantic here? I think your first suggestion might be the way to go, only thing perhaps I'd have 3 queens to find and I'm pretty bad at spotting them! Thank you very much for your reply.

I'd add another frame of brood to colony 2 from colony 1.
I'd leave all colonies as they are and see if all queens get mated and lay, and then assess their temperament. I'd let them build up somewhat (if mated) and then look at combining down the track, depending on how it all goes and how they turn out. Do these assessments at some stage before you run out of any chance to get a new queen, just in case. My personal view is that three hives are a good (minimum) number to have. It sounds a little too risky to combine with so few colonies at this stage.

 

[Sianerw]

I'd add another frame of brood to colony 2 from colony 1.
I'd leave all colonies as they are and see if all queens get mated and lay, and then assess their temperament. I'd let them build up somewhat (if mated) and then look at combining down the track, depending on how it all goes and how they turn out. Do these assessments at some stage before you run out of any chance to get a new queen, just in case. My personal view is that three hives are a good (minimum) number to have. It sounds a little too risky to combine with so few colonies at this stage.

Thank you again. I agree - 3 (productive!) hives are ideal for me and that's what I'm aiming for. I'm a bit wary of taking another frame from colony 1 to give to colony 2 as they ignored the last one and they are old bees. Also I'm worried about colony 3's temperament - they are near a public road -walkers and cyclists. A few are always by the gate - about 10 yards away from the hive. So really my first priority is sorting them out immediately. Other than risking combining the feisty colony with my best colony ( not sure if they are more likely to kill the queen), perhaps I'll have to buy an imported queen which goes against the grain.

 

[Anduril]

Looking at this again, hive 2 is weak, did you add a frame of eggs with or without the queen in the hive? Did you kill the queen and then add eggs, or haven't you been able to find the queen? They may not have made queencells because the hive is queen-right.
Hive 3 may be tetchy because they were requeening or have become tetchy because they are queenless.
If you were to combine all 3 then there may be an undesirable queen from one of the other hives that will kill the queen in hive 1.

 

[Sianerw]

Looking at this again, hive 2 is weak, did you add a frame of eggs with or without the queen in the hive? Did you kill the queen and then add eggs, or haven't you been able to find the queen? They may not have made queencells because the hive is queen-right.
Hive 3 may be tetchy because they were requeening or have become tetchy because they are queenless.
If you were to combine all 3 then there may be an undesirable queen from one of the other hives that will kill the queen in hive 1.

First inspection April 28 - colony 2 was broodless. I couldn't see the queen. Assuming they were queenless I gave them a frame of eggs about a week later just to be sure. They didn't build queencells, but I still haven't seen the queen.

 

[Antipodes]

I'm a bit wary of taking another frame from colony 1 to give to colony 2 as they ignored the last one and they are old bees.

In these sorts of situations, it tends to take more than one frame to bring about the production of queen cells.

 

[Anduril]

For hive 2, have an empty nuc box or brood chamber ready, to look for the queen, place the frames in pairs, between the hive and spare brood chamber or nuc, keeping the frames away from the side walls. If there is a queen she will go to the dark areas between the frames, all you have to do after 10 to 20 minutes is pull the frames out in their pairs and look for a queen. If that is unsuccessful then get 2 spare brood Chambers, remove the chamber with frames from the floor and set aside on the roof that you have removed. Place a spare brood chamber on top of the original floor, add a queen excluder on top of that brood chamber and then add another empty brood chamber above the queen excluder Shake the bees off the frames into the empty brood chamber above the queen excluder and inspect for a queen and then smoke them down into the lower brood chamber. Once that is done remove the top brood chamber and look for a queen stranded above the excluder. After all of that, if there isn't a queen, shake them out infront of the other hives as they are a lost cause.

 

[Sutty]

For hive 2, have an empty nuc box or brood chamber ready, to look for the queen, place the frames in pairs, between the hive and spare brood chamber or nuc, keeping the frames away from the side walls. If there is a queen she will go to the dark areas between the frames, all you have to do after 10 to 20 minutes is pull the frames out in their pairs and look for a queen. If that is unsuccessful then get 2 spare brood Chambers, remove the chamber with frames from the floor and set aside on the roof that you have removed. Place a spare brood chamber on top of the original floor, add a queen excluder on top of that brood chamber and then add another empty brood chamber above the queen excluder Shake the bees off the frames into the empty brood chamber above the queen excluder and inspect for a queen and then smoke them down into the lower brood chamber. Once that is done remove the top brood chamber and look for a queen stranded above the excluder. After all of that, if there isn't a queen, shake them out infront of the other hives as they are a lost cause.

The sieving works better if you can place a few frames of open brood (minus bees) under the excluder.
I've found them nigh on impossible to smoke down otherwise.

 

[Anduril]

The sieving works better if you can place a few frames of open brood (minus bees) under the excluder.
I've found them nigh on impossible to smoke down otherwise.

True, but the OP would have to use brood from another hive. But I've smoked them enough to get it to work.

 

[Sutty]

True, but the OP would have to use brood from another hive. But I've smoked them enough to get it to work.

Not necessarily, you can shake eg 3 frames onto the rest of the waiting frames then put them under the qe

 

[Sianerw]

Thank you all. After considering everyone's generous advice this is the plan at the moment.
Leave hive 1 alone - maybe later on take a frame of bias to make a nuc if they don't make swarm preparations.
Shake out hive 2. The number of bees suggests that the queen, if she's there has not been laying for a long while.
Check hive 3 for new queen, dispatch if she's there, requeen with bought queen.
Leave nuc alone to see what happens.
Just two more questions if anyone has the time and patience!
I always thought that a colony would not allow another queen in, so couldn't I just shake them all out without even looking for her?
Can you recommend anyone in particular with queens for sale this early?

 

[Erichalfbee]

I always thought that a colony would not allow another queen in, so couldn't I just shake them all out without even looking for her?


Can you recommend anyone in particular with queens for sale this early?

Yes

it depends what you want. I like orange bees and have always had good queens from BS Honey bees. I have one from Black Mountain Honey that I’m quite pleased with.

@Swarm has lovely black bees. He might know of a good supplier.

 

[Anduril]

Seconded