Treatment Free

[Erichalfbee]

Strange, I thought for once it was a (reasonably) civilised discussion, especially after we got rid of the trolling tag team

I agree.
Threads like this do get lively and that’s no bad thing otherwise beginners will think it’s ok to just get bees and go TF with little thought.
There are lots of other groups on social media to discuss TF unmolested.

So don’t take umbrage this is just normal debate.
There is already a thread in foundation free frames elsewhere in the forum.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I remember the OP was on commercial TF keeping and I mentioned Scot McPherson earlier in this thread. He has a facebook page with a lot of his videos (there is another place he does keeping info too but can't find it) Log into Facebook | Facebook

Thought I may as well do the whole lot rather than individual links. For the small cell size see the video 'How cell size affects the health of your bees' with a neat idea about small cell = shorter time till emergence = less varroa.

For general why to let bees do it their way and make money see the video 'Good genertics or good bees ?' where he explains how he builds an apiary quickly using strong bees. Really worth a watch regardless.

I’m afraid there us as much if not more research debunking the whole theory of small cell so you pays your money and you takes your choice
Until the takeover of the forum we have had little input from USA beekeepers except Mike Palmer
Beekeeping practices are very different here.

 

[ericbeaumont]

Are you sure it is natural to give bees an unlimited amount of room to expand into, despite this not being the case in any natural cavity?

Bees are invariably variable and the flexible beekeeper follows the signs: unlimited room would be as inappropriate a management method as limited room. The timely addition of room is more useful.
Not sure about the certainty of any natural cavity: for example, a chimney offers unlimited room and bees choose chimneys.

The single most natural thing that bees do is swarm.

Bees work according to two natural drivers, not one: acquisition and replication. Generally, they acquire first to reach a level of success which enables them to enact the second. In this respect, working with them to acquire to a level they choose is a good idea.

Of course, any responsible beekeeper will do everything in their power to ensure that swarming is a managed process, with no escapees.

In an ideal world, Bob, but real life tells a different story: beekeeper forgot, beekeeper ill, beekeeper couldn't care less, beekeeper doesn't know how, beekeeper doesn't want to learn how. I admit to three of those in my time, but my intent to avoid swarms never wavered.

Varroa management is but one element of beekeeping and it seems to me that Seeley can be quoted selectively to support any theory. I was reminded of this understandable human instinct when in conversation yesterday with another beekeeper (thanks, Danyal), and as August is a leisurely month I'll re-read Seeley to grasp the story in its entirety.

 

[charentejohn]

On the cavity size question my first bees adopted me by occupying a bird roosting box. That said they weren't the best at evaluating a situation. In a 30L sealed plywood box on a garage wall facing west in a place that regularly getsa full sun on 30c days and up to 40c in summer, central France. Some photos show I put a shade on them when really bad, box rotted after 4+yrs so you can see the repair. Then had to be moved as near a small road so shows new location. After 7 years box unopened, they died out AH and the too small a colony, but that's another story.
Photos show the size compared to a Warre box (about 1.5x size) and the box shown is the other box that birds managed to use
Other photos are after they died out showing interior comb pathways. Loads of stores as died out before winter, as possibly insecticide contamnated (AH with it on them entered) had to be binned.
Just to show what they sometimes choose to live in. You can see from the numbers outside on hot days how packed it was. Local keeper reckoned they must have swarmed at leat once every year probably more. At the time I just left them to it which is why I did a basic course and am now, 2yrs after they died out, starting again with something more appropriate that I can intervene in if I really have to, otherwise left alone.
Bird box on wall
Bees in bird box
Dead out after AH and insecticide
Old bird box hive

 

[Curly green finger's]

I know a local commercial tomato grower who plays classical music to his tomato plants - swears that they grow faster, have less disease and give better crops as a result...perhaps the bees know something we have not yet cottoned on to ? Perhaps piped music into my hives will be my next experiment ...

Suitable suggestions about what may be appropriate would be appreciated ....

John williams theme tune to the superman movie..
Romanza, cavatina, preludes, Johnny cash songs, maybe some ragtime, jazz,
Blues, folk rock.. Bob Dylan.

All of the above I play on my guitars, sometimes to the bees in the garden.

I play a banjo, manderlin also, mainly Irish folk music.

My neighbour loves me very much!

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I play a banjo,
My neighbour loves me very much!

What are your teeth like?

 

[Swarm]

There seems to be quite a few managing their bees TF, which makes me wonder (with even more scepticism) whether all this talk of VSH queens is just a load of bunkum.

 

[Curly green finger's]

What are your teeth like?

Pretty bad I'm having inplants
And I'm not joking either.

 

[john w]

I’m afraid there us as much if not more research debunking the whole theory of small cell so you pays your money and you takes your choice
Until the takeover of the forum we have had little input from USA beekeepers except Mike Palmer
Beekeeping practices are very different here.

That is a very fair point - the balance of expert opinion show against small cell. When you scratch beneath the surface of the research you quickly see that much of it was done over weeks or months. I don't want to get into 'expert bashing' but I can speak from my own experiences.

I have regressed (made small) between 30 and 40 colonies and it takes a whole season for things to settle down so to take an early snap shot can quite rightly and accurately result in reporting very negative results. There are many of us (incl a seasonal bee inspector) that use small cell. Thornes sell small cell foundation in all formats. The few wild colonies I have investigated/caught swarms from have all been on 4.9mm to 5.00mm brood cell size (regular brood foundation is 5.4mm, small cell is 4.9mm).

For some of us here in the UK it to works. 3 years ago I manned a stand at the National Honey show to talk about small cell. Many people were interested but few took it up. It always amazes me how quick fellow beekeepers are to hit upon things that are different and that they have never tried instead of being open to possibility. There is a lot of inherited knowledge/wisdom in beekeeping and occasionally we could, maybe, just challenge it or try something different. Maybe! I guess it is a case of each to their own.

john w

 

[pargyle]

There is a lot of inherited knowledge/wisdom in beekeeping and occasionally we could, maybe, just challenge it or try something different. Maybe! I guess it is a case of each to their own.

john w

There's a lot of inherited lack of wisdom, misguided and just plain WRONG misinformation perpetuated in beekeeping. A lot that even flies in the face of science ... it's a craft that moves very slowly into even ideas that are good.

 

[Erichalfbee]

The few wild colonies I have investigated/caught swarms from have all been on 4.9mm to 5.00mm brood cell size (regular brood foundation is 5.4mm, small cell is 4.9mm).



john w

So what cell size do bees make left to their own devices?
Edit
I’ve just checked mine and it’s 5mm
You say it works for you.
So what do you mean by that?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

So what cell size do bees make left to their own devices?
Edit
I’ve just checked mine and it’s 5mm

Same here and I had a piece of free drawn comb the size of a national deep to check on.

Was chatting about the 'small cell' foundation sold by by thornes when I visited the stand at last year's convention, I think the consensus was, if people are willing to spend their money on it, who are we to argue?

 

[john w]

So what cell size do bees make left to their own devices?
Edit
I’ve just checked mine and it’s 5mm
You say it works for you.
So what do you mean by that?

The bees will make cell sizes according to their body size ie if you take a bunch of bees from a colony with 5.4mm foundation and put them into foundation boxes/frames they will make 5.4mm cell sizes. I have done he same with wild/feral colonies that have been resident in tress for several years ie not recent escapees. When I let them do their own thing they built 4.9/5.0mm cell size. It is not very often it is possible to find wild colonies and get access to their comb. I did just that last winter when badgers robbed out a local hive at the base of a tree in Tidmarsh, just west of Reading. Again the brood size was very small - 4.9mm and just under.

None of the above confirms anything but it did make me think! When I say it works for me I mean that I have not had to treat my colonies for the last 9 years and have lost one colony to varroa (others have died out on occasion due to usual - mine - beekeeper neglect). During that time I have had between 6 and 24 colonies depending on what type of experimenting we were doing.

john

 

[Erichalfbee]

The bees will make cell sizes according to their body size ie if you take a bunch of bees from a colony with 5.4mm foundation and put them into foundation boxes/frames they will make 5.4mm cell sizes. I have done he same with wild/feral colonies that have been resident in tress for several years ie not recent escapees. When I let them do their own thing they built 4.9/5.0mm cell size. It is not very often it is possible to find wild colonies and get access to their comb. I did just that last winter when badgers robbed out a local hive at the base of a tree in Tidmarsh, just west of Reading. Again the brood size was very small - 4.9mm and just under.

None of the above confirms anything but it did make me think! When I say it works for me I mean that I have not had to treat my colonies for the last 9 years and have lost one colony to varroa (others have died out on occasion due to usual - mine - beekeeper neglect). During that time I have had between 6 and 24 colonies depending on what type of experimenting we were doing.

john

Will bees regress themselves?
My 5mm free drawn comb is from fat orange bees with a marked queen that delivered themselves to a bait hive.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Will bees regress themselves?
My 5mm free drawn comb is from fat orange bees with a marked queen that delivered themselves to a bait hive.

Mine was from small dark bees.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Mine was from small dark bees.

I’ll see what Jonathan’s do next year.
My point being is why go to all the shenanigans of regressing bees when you can just leave them to draw their own comb.
Also what about old comb and smaller bees? Do they have less varroa?

 

[fiat500bee]

I’ll see what Jonathan’s do next year.
My point being is why go to all the shenanigans of regressing bees when you can just leave them to draw their own comb.
Also what about old comb and smaller bees? Do they have less varroa?

Do you mean what I think you mean? Very old comb with its layers of cocoon would have a smaller internal size. So is there any known reduction in verroa infestation of pupae in older comb?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Do you mean what I think you mean? Very old comb with its layers of cocoon would have a smaller internal size. So is there any known reduction in verroa infestation of pupae in older comb?

I do

 

[john w]

Personally I do not believe so because the cell width changes due to old cocoons is miniscule.
Its all about the size of the bees predominantly but not exclusively. Oddie et al in Norway seemed to have unravelled how small bees (and some larger ones) manage their varroa load.

It seems to relate to their propensity to recap cells ie they detect varroa presence within cells and then they bore a small hole in the cell capping, disrupting the equilibrium of temp and humidity. Sometimes they remove the pupae, most of the time they 'recap' the cell - job done.

For some reason this behaviour seems to be more prominent in small bees BUT there are example of some larger bees adopting this behaviour too. Prof Steve Martin has looked into this here in the UK including I believe the bees (regular size) in Wales that are managing their varroa load, my bees and another cohort of regular bees elsewhere.

john

 

[happyculteur]

I understand very little in bee or any other genetics so please explain something to me. The queen mates with many drones coming from many colonies. If these colonies have bees of different sizes to one another, won't the mated queen then lay workers of various sizes. And if cell size is caused by bee size wouldn't this cause different cell sizes in the hive? I'm getting very confused.