Treatment Free

[The Poot in Somerset]

Well if you are talking about how politicians measure things, I would agree..

But if politicians were measured on results, most would end up with large minus scores...


But in the real world if you measure the right things then you know that you have some controls.

When I see public service unions complaining about measurements I am extremely cynical.

I agree - it’s the “if” you mention which is the big issue.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

I find this debate somewhat bizarre.
In the human world with one or two exceptions we have a global pandemic with nations scrambling to create a treatment against the Corona virus and enforcing travel restrictions to limit the spread.
Various highly vocal individuals berating those in charge for applying lockdowns then others berating them for not applying stringent lockdowns.
Get it wrong and the consequences are potentially catastrophic. Just for good measure bubonic plague has appeared in China which has parallels in that parasites/pests are the transmission link.
I'll observe my bees and if they need treatment for anything they'll get it.

 

[Madge]

When is treatment free treatment free ? - when you haven't treated your bees for varroa...end of ! If I haven't treated my bees I fail to see how you construe that I am not TF ?

Yes, but that seems to have been luck as you said you will treat if necessary. I hope that’s the case because the only other two possibilities are that you are happy to let them suffer, or you’re unaware of them suffering.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Hi Super Man.

Disgraceful! This may be a forum but it is not an 'open' forum.

I think you got hit by one moderator who doesn't agree with you. If so, a serious abuse of power IMO. Other than that, some snowflake put in a complaint. Regardless it would still have taken a moderator to remove it.

Pretty sneaky and a forum disgrace not to leave your post up for debate.

If I see censorship like this again, I'll be off.

Let's see if this or myself is removed.

Fred.

I don’t agree that you should post that you want to burn somebody’s hives down.and that was the only reason.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Super Man
Captain 666
Disagree by all means Gentlemen but don’t trash the thread forbothers who wish to post in it
This is a public forum and can be read by young beekeepers.
You can both have a holiday for a few days

 

[pargyle]

Yes, but that seems to have been luck as you said you will treat if necessary. I hope that’s the case because the only other two possibilities are that you are happy to let them suffer, or you’re unaware of them suffering.

Kitta, That may be your opinion but it's not a fact ... perhaps when you get to the bottom of the hole you might consider stopping digging ...

There's a lot of work goes into my beekeeping to ensure my bees are healthy; Yes, there are often a few varroa present in my colonies ... but they never reach the sort of levels that give me or the bees concern. My colonies don't get Nosema, I've never found any evidence of DWV or CBPV and I don't get any brood diseases - not even chalk brood in spring ... I've got at least 70 lbs of capped honey on all my colonies and more than that on two - and they have frames of stores in the brood boxes - in my location, as an urban beekeeper, that's a better crop than most other beekeepers in my area (and according to Beebase) there are 301 other apiaries within a 10km radius.

You seem intent on branding me as a bad beekeeper ... but let me ask you - who seems to have got the formula right ? Without varroa treatment ? Or foundation ? Or excessive winter feeding ? Or Thymolated syrup ? Yes - there may be an element of luck involved - 8+ years of it ~ perhaps I am VERY lucky.

 

[ericbeaumont]

If the neighbour with low honey yields has clean, healthy bees, inspects regularly, knows what to do about swarms, and so on, then she is perfectly competent and may simply choose not to add super after super.

If she chooses not to add super after super she'd better know what to do about swarms; where will it all go if not into another box? Your views about bees and honey suggests that it's of no interest to some beekeepers, but please accept that it is of the greatest interest to bees. Working against nature surely demonstrates incompetence.

 

[pargyle]

If she chooses not to add super after super she'd better know what to do about swarms; where will it all go if not into another box? Your views about bees and honey suggests that it's of no interest to some beekeepers, but please accept that it is of the greatest interest to bees. Working against nature surely demonstrates incompetence.

We can all agree with this ... but we keep seeing bad beekeeping and let alone beekeeping being mixed in with being treatment free ... Dani said it earlier ... there is a world of difference.

 

[fiat500bee]

I have seen and read of the success of beekeepers who have proven that keeping bees in a natural way is both possible and productive. Treatment-free beekeeping probably involves more manipulations, at least as many strategies and every bit as much love and knowledge of bees as any conventional beekeeper will expend. I doubt that any proponent of this approach to the art does so in pursuit of reduced expenditure or an easy life.

It hasn't taken me long to do some initial research into the many fascinating techniques and the practical and scientific bases on which "treatment-free" is dependent. I haven't read every contribution to this thread since the start but I wonder if some of the people with hardened views against it have actually researched the subject prior to dimissing it so strongly?

As a new beekeeper who is already a proud " bee-fiddler" and "bee-messer" I intend to make great efforts to have healthy bees, initially, with as little treatment as possible. As an intelligent and open-minded bee-lover, ultimately I see no reason why I can't eventually have healthy and productive hives without resorting to chemical treatments.

 

[Madge]

...Yes, there are often a few varroa present in my colonies ... but they never reach the sort of levels that give me or the bees concern. ...
You seem intent on branding me as a bad beekeeper ... ...Yes - there may be an element of luck involved - ..

Don’t slander me. I did not say you’re a bad beekeeper. You said you’ll treat your colonies if necessary - so, that being the case, you’re ok.

 

[madasafish]

I have a simple rule of thumb.

If people are interested enough to post about beekeeping here, it is likely they are a "competent " beekeeper or are on the way to becoming one.
(Trolls excepted of course)

 

[bobthecob]

If she chooses not to add super after super she'd better know what to do about swarms; where will it all go if not into another box? Your views about bees and honey suggests that it's of no interest to some beekeepers, but please accept that it is of the greatest interest to bees. Working against nature surely demonstrates incompetence.

Are you sure it is natural to give bees an unlimited amount of room to expand into, despite this not being the case in any natural cavity? Seeley's experiments with "small-hive beekeeping" suggests that, with good swarm management (i.e. splits) bees cope far better with varroa when their nests are kept to "normal" sizes of 40-50 litres on average (i.e. brood and a half ish). The brood break that comes with swarming (artificially managed where at all possible of course!) is the bees natural defence against varroa. So I am not sure your argument re working against nature is correct. Just my view.

The single most natural thing that bees do is swarm. As it happens, swarming (artificial or not) knocks back varroa significantly. Overall, I think probably the single greatest thing that beekeepers do to help the varroa mite is to discourage swarming. Beekeepers that actively discourage swarming, whether by repeatedly knocking down queen cells, or adding unlimited space, may well have no choice but to treat their bees, in my opinion, to offset the un-natural effect of swarm prevention.

Of course, any responsible beekeeper will do everything in their power to ensure that swarming is a managed process, with no escapees. Personally, I inspect regularly, wait until I see swarm cells, and then split the colony into as many components as is necessary, with a swarm cell in each component apart from the one with the queen in.

 

[fiat500bee]

He has an excellent website with lots of ideas: The Practical Beekeeper, Beekeeping Naturally, Bush Bees, by Michael Bush

Everyone would benefit frpm reading Michael Bush's thoughts which extend far beyond beekeeping to very well reasoned views on almost everything else!

On beekeeping I note that many of his techniques are similar to those adopted and recommended by Tim Rowe.

 

[1amanda1]

Can we stop judging each other on our style of beekeeping and get back to discussing beekeeping, please.

I would like to hear from anyone who uses foundationless frames. How do you stop the bees building comb across more than one frame?

Positive, helpful comments only please. I'm trying to improve my technique not be denigrated for trying something different.

 

[Tim.S]

It always amuses me when I speak to the treatment free brigade whether online or face to face that when challenged as to how they know they are 'free of varroa' (their claim) they mostly clam up as few if any seem to test properly. I even made the offer to one chap that I would come and do an alcohol wash for him free of charge - needless to say he didn't take my offer up.

All power to those that do it properly and manage their bees as they should but for quite a few it does indeed seem to be a cover for the lazy beekeepers brigade.

 

[Levitt53]

It always amuses me when I speak to the treatment free brigade whether online or face to face that when challenged as to how they know they are 'free of varroa' (their claim) they mostly clam up as few if any seem to test properly. I even made the offer to one chap that I would come and do an alcohol wash for him free of charge - needless to say he didn't take my offer up.

All power to those that do it properly and manage their bees as they should but for quite a few it does indeed seem to be a cover for the lazy beekeepers brigade.

TF is not denying that you have any varroa in your hives it is trying to produce bees that can live with varroa using techniques to maximise their chances.

 

[charentejohn]

Just seen this and in answer to the original question, now long lost, about any commercial TF keepers (from USA not UK) try Scot Mc Pherson. He is documenting restarting a commercial apiary having relocated accross the US. He started 35yrs ago TF and still is. Not a 'soft' keeper he is commercialy focused, his fast buildup methods may appeal to some, his view seems to be, with a commercial operation, surviving hives are strong hives and those that fail are replaced by splits from these. He made it work and said he knows a lot of older keepers pre varroa never bothered to start treating. Presumably those that did treat are now locked into that cycle.
His commercial side is not for me, just 2 hives, but his thoughts are and carry the weight of someone who has done this commerically for so long. People with that background are few and far between.

His video on why can't we get along,

The mite bomb debate

 

[1amanda1]

It always amuses me when I speak to the treatment free brigade whether online or face to face that when challenged as to how they know they are 'free of varroa' (their claim) they mostly clam up as few if any seem to test properly. I even made the offer to one chap that I would come and do an alcohol wash for him free of charge - needless to say he didn't take my offer up.

All power to those that do it properly and manage their bees as they should but for quite a few it does indeed seem to be a cover for the lazy beekeepers brigade.

"lazy beekeepers brigade" This is unnecessarily judgemental and derogatory. It stifles any discussion we may like to have about different beekeeping techniques. Why don't you just tell us what you do and we can all make up our own minds about the different ways people keep bees. If we all keep an open mind, there is a chance we can learn from each other.

 

[bobthecob]

I would like to hear from anyone who uses foundationless frames. How do you stop the bees building comb across more than one frame?

Positive, helpful comments only please. I'm trying to improve my technique not be denigrated for trying something different.

That's a really interesting subject, but I think you should start a new thread to get a discussion going on it, as it isn't specific to TF? Might help you get more responses.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Can we stop judging each other on our style of beekeeping and get back to discussing beekeeping, please.

I would like to hear from anyone who uses foundationless frames. How do you stop the bees building comb across more than one frame?

Positive, helpful comments only please. I'm trying to improve my technique not be denigrated for trying something different.

You start alternating empty frames with drawn ones to keep the bee drawn frames straight. It works very well providing the hive is level. I have a couple of colonies on FF but as I run 14x12 I have to reinforce the comb by wiring the frames with fishing line. Other people use bamboo skewers. With a National you probably don't need this. Nail a starter strip under the wedge, or pour a little wax on it or turn the wedge round and nail it up are all good ways of getting the bees to start drawing the frame in the right place