Treatment Free doesn't work

[Beesnaturally]

Are your bees resistant or tolerant to varroa?

Either or both. Are you looking for a rough or a scientific description, and if scientific, is there a widely agreed and clear distinction?

Of course not all are the same - they are not a singular strain, just surviving bees from different locations, with a little interchange of genes having taken place among some.

If I were choosing the words I'd be tempted to say resistant to and/or tolerant of... 'tolerant to' doesn't seem like good grammar to me. But scientific papers are often written by people for whom English is a second language.

Maybe you could tell me how you'd describe my bees, and why?

 

[Anduril]

Resistant would imply a reduced level of varroa.
Tolerant a high level of varroa.
Resistant is measurable.

 

[Beesnaturally]

One flaw with this theory is if multiple low fecundity mites infect a cell and reproduce there could be more mites present than if fewer high fecundity mites were present in a cell. This would defeat the selection.

Which means that the hypothesis may need more work.... Such as for this selection for lower fecundity to occur, other factors would need to be keeping mite populations low enough to stop multiple mites per unsealed cell.

I think you would regard that on an ceteris paribus (all else being equal) basis, at least initially. The more mites are around and/or the fewer suitable cells are there, the more likely you are to get multiple occupancy. It probably makes no difference whether they mites are going to have 7 infants or just 2.

Of coure you can always posit that it might make a difference, that higher fecundity mites look more carefully for empty cells than low fecundity mites. Sans a study I would work on the basis that that is probably not so.

 

[Beesnaturally]

Resistant would imply a reduced level of varroa.
Tolerant a high level of varroa.
Resistant is measurable.

I imagine that is configued on the basis that either/or are achieving much the same outcome?

I would say resistant, but I'm no expert. I don't look all that often, and when I do I never see it. My bee inspector says she sees a little, meaning less than she would expect.

 

[Anduril]

I imagine that is configued on the basis that either/or are achieving much the same outcome?

I would say resistant, but I'm no expert. I don't look all that often, and when I do I never see it. My bee inspector says she sees a little, meaning less than she would expect.

If resistant then with a monitoring board you would see damaged varroa, where the bees have taken bites out of them.

 

[Beesnaturally]

If resistant then with a monitoring board you would see damaged varroa, where the bees have taken bites out of them.

I'm sure. Then what would you recommend I do with the information?

 

[Anduril]

There is this paper on grooming behaviour Grooming Behavior in Naturally Varroa-Resistant Apis mellifera Colonies From North-Central Argentina
Also you would be mirroring Ron Hoskins work. But he also has DWV-B from the research with Plymouth University.

 

[Beesnaturally]

There is this paper on grooming behaviour Grooming Behavior in Naturally Varroa-Resistant Apis mellifera Colonies From North-Central Argentina
Also you would be mirroring Ron Hoskins work. But he also has DWV-B from the research with Plymouth University.

I'm not sure why you are telling me this? I keep bees, in a manner designed to let them attain and _maintain_ health-self-sufficiency, and not downgrade the health of nearby feral bees. I'm not a formal researcher, nor do I want to be.

There are lots of papers. I follow the maxim of Jehn Kefus an eminent entomologist, and the man who coined the phrase to describe his first method of raising varroa resistant (and/or tolerant) bees: 'Live and let Die.' "You don't have to know how it works, you only have to know _that_ it works."

That said, I'm interested in anything that might help - and just plain interested -, but very aware that any interference I make to natural selection in my apiaries will likely impact on my local bees... and this is the main thing I'm trying to avoid. TBH I have other things I want to be doing with my time than becoming an internet varroa 'expert'.

For an insight into the depth of Kefus' scientific work in this area (with which I am entirely ignorant) see:
https://orcid.org/0000-0002-7218-6823
He has actually published in the very area currently in focus here - the question of multiple varroa> The paper is recent, short but instructive in several areas.

For example:

"Abstract
Parasitism is expected to select for counter-adaptations in the host: driving a coevolu-
tionary arms race. However, human interference between honey bees (Apis mellifera)
and Varroa mites removes the effect of natural selection and restricts the evolution
of host counter-adaptations. With full-sibling mating common among Varroa , this can
rapidly select for virulent, highly inbred, Va rroa populations. We investigated how
the evolution of host resistance could affect the infesting population of Varroa mites.
We screened a Varroa-resistant honey bee population near Toulouse, France, for
a Varroa resistance trait: the inhibition of Varroa's reproduction in drone pupae. We
then genotyped Varr oa which had co-infested a cell using microsatellites. Across all
resistant honey bee colonies, Varroa's reproductive success was significantly higher
in co-infested cells but the distribution of Varroa between singly and multiply in-
fested cells was not different from random."

And (from the Discussion section):

"Acaricide treatment prevents Varroa resistance from evolving in many managed honey bee colonies, thereby preventing the evolution of a stable host–parasite relationship (Bell, 1982; Hamilton et al., 1990). Our results show that, when Varroa resistance is allowed to develop by natural selection (Fries & Bommarco, 2007; Kefuss et al., 2015), it is possible for a host–parasite relationship to evolve. The increased reproductive success we identify when Varroa co-infests the drone pupae of resistant honey bee colonies means that, in contrast to acaricide-treated colonies (Beaurepaire et al., 2017; González-Cabrera et al., 2016), there may be selection for outbred offspring. This, combined with a small propor tion of Varroa reproducing in each generation, could reduce the selective pressure for the evolution of more virulent counter resistance traits and result in a more stable host–parasite relationship"

https://www.researchgate.net/public...g_resistant_honey_bee_Apis_mellifera_colonies

 

[BugsInABox]

I want to but I wont; it's late, goodnight all.

 

[rolande]

I've missed most of this thread and simply don't have time to read through all of it at present so if my question has been covered by anyone previously I'd welcome a link to the post(s).

I'd be interested in reading about how untreated colonies are performing, do they have certain 'issue times' during the year where they're noticeably behind what you'd expect a fully treated colony to be at in the same location?

I'm not looking for defensive responses, just honest observations. Any of us who've been down the 'live and let die' road at some point know that there are differences between performance of stocks in different locations - for whatever reason.

My own experience was that spring was always an issue time with smaller than average colonies coming out of winter, dwv very noticeable, good brood patterns (you check a brood pattern by looking at unsealed brood not the sealed) but poor sealed brood patterns. By June, if they got through spring, they'd be looking fine with good sealed brood patterns and barely noticeable dwv. They'd then continue well (if they didn't crash in late summer) into the winter.

 

[Beesnaturally]

I've missed most of this thread and simply don't have time to read through all of it at present so if my question has been covered by anyone previously I'd welcome a link to the post(s).

I'd be interested in reading about how untreated colonies are performing, do they have certain 'issue times' during the year where they're noticeably behind what you'd expect a fully treated colony to be at in the same location?

I'm not looking for defensive responses, just honest observations. Any of us who've been down the 'live and let die' road at some point know that there are differences between performance of stocks in different locations - for whatever reason.

My own experience was that spring was always an issue time with smaller than average colonies coming out of winter, dwv very noticeable, good brood patterns (you check a brood pattern by looking at unsealed brood not the sealed) but poor sealed brood patterns. By June, if they got through spring, they'd be looking fine with good sealed brood patterns and barely noticeable dwv. They'd then continue well (if they didn't crash in late summer) into the winter.

My experience is: variation, but I have no controls to compare with. I do try to tickle them up through the spring with fondant and giving room to lay in, if possible. (I don't share brood comb about so it isn't always possible). I give intervening starter strip as soon as they look like they can build it out. And... They vary.
Remember, queens are all ages. But those that overwinter large I reckon on average are the first away.
I don't suppose that answers your question at all...

 

[rolande]

My experience is: variation, but I have no controls to compare with. I do try to tickle them up through the spring with fondant and giving room to lay in, if possible. (I don't share brood comb about so it isn't always possible). I give it intervening starter strip as soon as they look like they can build it out. And... They vary.
Remember, queens are all ages. But those that overwinter large I reckon on average are the first away.
I don't suppose that answers your question at all...

No right or wrong answer.! I'm just interested in seeing other people's experiences and the way their colonies manage themselves.

On another tack, I'm interested in your use of foundationless in the spring, my own experience of this - of which there has been a *lot* due to lack of cash in the past is that when put in a box which has been built on foundation you tend to get a high concentration of drone comb. It's different if the entire box is built on natural comb but if you have many combs built from foundation the addition of an empty frame is like a free for all at this time of year and yes I've seen many complete frames of drone, the modified dadant frames so drawn are quite a sight. I now prefer to add foundationless frames later in the year. So, do you use all foundationless or a mix? I'd be interested in your views on this.

 

[Boston Bees]

No right or wrong answer.! I'm just interested in seeing other people's experiences and the way their colonies manage themselves.

On another tack, I'm interested in your use of foundationless in the spring, my own experience of this - of which there has been a *lot* due to lack of cash in the past is that when put in a box which has been built on foundation you tend to get a high concentration of drone comb. It's different if the entire box is built on natural comb but if you have many combs built from foundation the addition of an empty frame is like a free for all at this time of year and yes I've seen many complete frames of drone, the modified dadant frames so drawn are quite a sight. I now prefer to add foundationless frames later in the year. So, do you use all foundationless or a mix? I'd be interested in your views on this.

I too find this. But spring is when they want drone comb - if they don't have it then they jam the stuff in all sorts of silly places. And I want the drone proportion to be as natural as possible. So I compromise with them. When adding frames, I give about 50/50 foundationless and worker foundation. The foundationless are indeed often drawn as entire sheets of drone comb, which is fine. I view it as a "one for you, one for me" approach.

Hopefully, in future years, when the hives contain lots of drone comb anyway (due to me adding foundationless over the years), they will become more relaxed about foundationless and use it to draw worker comb as much as drone comb. At that point I will switch entirely to foundationless.

 

[Beesnaturally]

No right or wrong answer.! I'm just interested in seeing other people's experiences and the way their colonies manage themselves.

On another tack, I'm interested in your use of foundationless in the spring, my own experience of this - of which there has been a *lot* due to lack of cash in the past is that when put in a box which has been built on foundation you tend to get a high concentration of drone comb. It's different if the entire box is built on natural comb but if you have many combs built from foundation the addition of an empty frame is like a free for all at this time of year and yes I've seen many complete frames of drone, the modified dadant frames so drawn are quite a sight. I now prefer to add foundationless frames later in the year. So, do you use all foundationless or a mix? I'd be interested in your views on this.

I've taken to cutting shallew wired foundation in half so they get about 2" to start them off, while being free to build as they please - though unless they are making drone cells I suspect they just maintain the cell pattern.

 

[madasafish]

In the mid 2010s our Association bought 4 x Apis Mellifera M queens from Isle of Colonsay. No varroa there .Requeened 4 colonies. Two were dead from varroa in 3 months , other two were badly infected . No varroa in Colonsay.mena:~No resistance. obviously.

So our own colonies have some resistance despite treatments.(certainly compared to bees with no varroa exposure)

 

[user 20297]

After initially getting the idea from @pargyle and his enthusiasm for the sport, I've used almost 50/50 foundationless alternated with starter strips, since starting beekeeping. I don't get excessive drone comb and in places, it's only because of the brass ferrules for the wiring, that I know which are which.
I have sometimes used excluders and it's as if the bees then know there's nothing to lose, and above them, some of the honey-filled cells are monsters which would seem too big...even for a drone.

 

[rolande]

I've used almost 50/50 foundationless alternated with starter strips,

Isn't that basically the same thing, all foundationless but for a few guides?

 

[user 20297]

Isn't that basically the same thing, all foundationless but for a few guides?

Yes, it would be, but for my typo. What I should have written was "foundation alternated with starter strips".
Using the bees' ability to make natural comb so willingly seems like an easy way to give them a more natural lifestyle.

 

[mbc]

I imagine that is configued on the basis that either/or are achieving much the same outcome?

I would say resistant, but I'm no expert. I don't look all that often, and when I do I never see it. My bee inspector says she sees a little, meaning less than she would expect.

So your bee inspector sees a little, you only ever see the tip of the iceberg, I hope you report it honestly when the crash happens.

 

[Beesnaturally]

So your bee inspector sees a little, you only ever see the tip of the iceberg, I hope you report it honestly when the crash happens.

I don't look. If a hive dies I take it home and it gets cleared up. I don't go in for post mortems, except on the most casual basis.

Its the living ones I'm interested in. At the moment I have around 20 4-6+ year-old never-treated-at-all- hives going absolutely gangbusters. Wouldn't you find that interesting? What would you do if you had access to them?