Treatment Free doesn't work

[Anduril]

As post 12, DWV-B acts as a protective layer against the main killer DWV-A.

There is also other research into DWV, using Sodium butyrate (NaB) which found that it reversed the learning ability, improved homing and RNA-seq restored the expression of genes involved in glycolysis and memory. But this was only using one hive. But this latter research is nothing to do with treatment free just showing where the target research is being formulated.

 

[Beesnaturally]

just because it might work under very specific circumstances we don't understand, how do you convince the majority of beekeepers to try this in working towards the goal of changing the dynamics of the host / parasite relationship?

'Understanding' is a tricky concept. Just what do you understand? How deep does it go? How pertinent is it to any specific question?

My view is that to understand the importance of genetic husbandry in persuit of stand-alone health, and to understand how to do it well, is 3/4s of what I need to understand. To understand the fundamental insights of evolution and co-evoltion is also hugely usful. If I get those things right I can leave the minutiae to the bees - though it is, as you say, very interesting.

To know the latter without the former is all but useless.

for most beekeepers being told it might help you in a few years if you let most / all of your colonies get weaker and potentially die off is an act of faith that many wont buy on faith alone - you are talking about absolute treatment free beekeeping rather than intervening when disease is detected and becomes an issue, after all. Going to be an even harder sale to joe public who's been told for years that bees are in danger, but the beekeepers are now going to let loads of them die off to save them in x years.

I don't care all that much. I'm interested in beekeepers who want to understand the mechanics and might want give it a go. Most of the rest will go on doing what they want to do - which is maximise their yields.

You are lucky enough to live in an area of the country that has apparently low hive density and an abundance of feral honey bees. That doesn't fit for most of the country. If you could show this works for higher hive density with few to no feral bees as a source of replacement bees then it would be a more reasonable sell. Your approach appears to require a very specific set of circumstances around the local bee / varroa / virus population dynamics. I think that is a pipe dream for most of the rest of us who want to keep all our bees health, calm and non swarmy and sometimes get a half decent honey crop.

Yes. See my post above, re drone comb. That's a move in that direction. Local breeding clubs are another. The strongest move is probably having an effective forum to talk about it as widely as possible. As to what beekeepers want, of course. But its useful to know there might be a connection, for example, between calmness on the comb and hive defence.

As I've said before, some (the 'alternative' beekeepers to my mind) are more interested in the health of the local ecology than in an individual colony.

Anyway, some of us like to understand how a jet engine or the maillard reaction works as part of the experience

Absolutely. Just don't mistake understanding something high to be all you need. You need to know where the deep ocean currents run to have knowledge of where the flotsam will end up (the North Atlantic Gyre ). You need to know how the odds for each game are stacked by the casino to have the best chance of winning.

 

[BugsInABox]

As the results are starting to firm up

But what are those results?
My personal take on where we've landed is you have a method that you think works for you. Good luck to you - I'm not sure though that you're observations, of both feild and literature, are empirical enough that much can be extrapolated to other scenarios. I suppose all new ideas, however ultimately valuable, start at the fringe. The conversation about why what you think you see might be happening is interesting and I hope it continues. Meanwhile it wouldn't seem unreasonable to highlight to inexperienced beekeepers that, currently at least, the interesting ideas you expound are fringe.

 

[user 20297]

Great that you're accepting those cases aren't a failure/variable effect of the treatment but you've lost me on the applying it to treatment free?

When a colony of bees dies (apparently) because it has intentionally not been given chemical treatment, that doesn't necessarily mean that it expired because it wasn't treated.

 

[Beesnaturally]

But what are those results?

At present, about fifty (down from seventy last September) mostly healthy booming hives of a range of ages, perhaps thirty at least 4 years old, about ten 6 or 7 years old. Entirely, completely, untreated. That is I think a good base to build from, which is what I'd hoped for.

What you think of as a method that works for me is a version of several main approaches to becoming treatment-free that are well studied and documented, and well understood in breeding and evolutionary terms. Its not me stumbling across something. Its me knowing my onions, putting in the work and getting the results. You are simply unfamilar with that body of knowledge is all. But yes, it is outside orthodoxy. I doubt there are many beginners who are unaware of that; but there are many who give it a go anyway, and enjoy and carry on doing it anyway. Its not usually as catastrohic as many think.

My guess is that you are here to try to understand more about the topic. I wish you luck, and if I can help, ask.

 

[BugsInABox]

Lot of assumptions about me in there which I'll not rise to.
You've also attributed things to my quote which aren't there. I simply said and will repeat:

My personal take on where we've landed is you have a method that you think works for you. Good luck to you - I'm not sure though that you're observations, of both feild and literature, are empirical enough that much can be extrapolated to other scenarios.
...
Meanwhile it wouldn't seem unreasonable to highlight to inexperienced beekeepers that, currently at least, the interesting ideas you expound are fringe.

You're odly keen to see walls of oppostion when actually it's willow.

 

[user 20297]

At present, about fifty (down from seventy last September) mostly healthy booming hives of a range of ages, perhaps thirty at least 4 years old, about ten 6 or 7 years old. Entirely, completely, untreated. That is I think a good base to build from, which is what I'd hoped for.

What you think of as a method that works for me is a version of several main approaches to becoming treatment-free that are well studied and documented, and well understood in breeding and evolutionary terms. Its not me stumbling across something. Its me knowing my onions, putting in the work and getting the results. You are simply unfamilar with that body of knowledge is all. But yes, it is outside orthodoxy. I doubt there are many beginners who are unaware of that; but there are many who give it a go anyway, and enjoy and carry on doing it anyway. Its not usually as catastrohic as many think.

My guess is that you are here to try to understand more about the topic. I wish you luck, and if I can help, ask.

Full marks for honesty and transparency; but are you saying that going on for 30% of your colonies didn't make it through winter?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Is that 30% loss an improvement over the last 13 years? Are you replacing your stock from survivors or the swarms and cut outs you collect?

 

[Beesnaturally]

Full marks for honesty and transparency; but are you saying that going on for 30% of your colonies didn't make it through winter?

Yes. 2 were lost to mice, 2 to wind, and I combined a couple. A few were too-small/new queens in nucs that didn't have what it took. Most died from late Feb to mid April, often surprising me, as previous checks had shown good development. It is a high percentage for me (its been as low as 10% and more usually between 15 and 20%) but I am in good company: around here at least there have been reports of widespread and catastrophic losses. I was told today of a chap who had last his entire stock of 32 hives.

 

[Bazzer]

At present, about fifty (down from seventy last September) mostly healthy booming hives of a range of ages, perhaps thirty at least 4 years old, about ten 6 or 7 years old. Entirely, completely, untreated. That is I think a good base to build from, which is what I'd hoped for.

What you think of as a method that works for me is a version of several main approaches to becoming treatment-free that are well studied and documented, and well understood in breeding and evolutionary terms. Its not me stumbling across something. Its me knowing my onions, putting in the work and getting the results. You are simply unfamilar with that body of knowledge is all. But yes, it is outside orthodoxy. I doubt there are many beginners who are unaware of that; but there are many who give it a go anyway, and enjoy and carry on doing it anyway. Its not usually as catastrohic as many think.

My guess is that you are here to try to understand more about the topic. I wish you luck, and if I can help, ask.

Colony losses are something I seldom saw when I had fewer colonies. Building up my treatment free colonies, losses are still low 5-15% - and these are due to "unfortunate" events such as isolation starvation or drone laying queens or queen loss and not varrosis or viruses. I have not seen any sign of DWV this year and only health concerns have been modest amounts of chalkbrood in one or two colonies.
I currently run foundationless mainly in multi-storey polynucs with a small entrance in each box so the bees do experience a slightly different environment from conventional set-ups. I do this to make management of splits easier in our normal poor weather - however I don't think this is a critical factor because nucs I have sold have also thrived in normal hives often untreated.

 

[Ian123]

We've had several papers recently detaitailing studies, which foolishly I haven't kept properly. I did get this far, and I have another list or two elsewhere if you'd like them.


https://www.tandfonline.com/.../10.../0005772X.2022.2019377
Journal of Api Research
The influence of genetic origin and its interaction with environmental effects on the survival of Apis mellifera L. colonies in Europe
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.3896/IBRA.1.53.2.03?needAccess=true
Geographical Distribution and Selection of European Honey Bees Resistant to Varroa destructor
https://www.mdpi.com/2075-4450/11/12/873/htm

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0005772X.2021.1982569?src=recsys
See letter to Pargyle for link to top paper
https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/threa...ntially-varroa-resistant-pol-line-bees.52546/

"mites can change their reproduction when associated with surviving hosts and that the bee behaviors suppressing mite reproduction can vary over time."
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...12/2/120/pdf&usg=AOvVaw30nNQ4Y8dC4TNfR0WFMLG0
https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/pdf/10.1098/rspb.2021.2101

Article Host-Parasite Co-Evolution in Real-Time: Changes in Honey Bee Resistance Mechanisms and Mite Reproductive Strategies
Abstract: Co-evolutionisamajordrivingforceshapingtheoutcomeofhost-parasiteinteractionsover time. After host shifts, the lack of co-evolution can have a drastic impact on novel host populations. Nevertheless, it is known that Western honey bee (Apis mellifera) populations can cope with hostshifted ectoparasitic mites (Varroa destructor) by means of natural selection. However, adaptive phenotypic traits of the parasites and temporal variations in host resistance behavior are poorly understood. Here,weshowthatmitesmadeadaptiveshiftsinreproductivestrategywhenassociated with resistant hosts and that host resistance traits can change over time. In a fully-crossed field experiment, worker brood cells of local adapted and non-adapted (control) A. mellifera host colonies were infested with mites originating from both types of host colonies. Then, mite reproduction as well as recapping of cells and removal of infested brood (i.e., Varroa Sensitive Hygiene, VSH) by host workers were investigated and compared to data from the same groups of host colonies three years earlier. The data suggest adaptive shifts in mite reproductive strategies, because mites from adapted hosts have higher probabilities of reproduction, but lower fecundity, when infesting their associated hosts than mites in treated colonies. The results confirm that adapted hosts can reduce mite reproductive success. However, neither recapping of cells nor VSH were significantly expressed, even though the latter was significantly expressed in this adapted population three years earlier. This suggests temporal variation in the expression of adaptive host traits. It also appears as if mechanismsnotinvestigatedherewereresponsibleforthereducedmitereproductionintheadapted hosts. Inconclusion,aholisticviewincludingmiteadaptationsandstudiesofthesameparasite/host populations over time appears overdue to finally understand the mechanisms enabling survival of V. destructor-infested honey bee host colonies.
(In Download)

-------
"It has been shown that virgins very rarely mate with related drones, which reduces the chances of inbreeding, one of the perils to avoid in any controlled breeding scheme. " http://entomology.ifas.ufl.edu/sanford/apis/apis92/apsep92.htm


Drone mother colonies – numbers and positioning
https://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/a...459/drone-mother-colonies-number-position.pdf"Best mating success has been reported when drone mother colonies are placed 2 to 2.5 Km away from the queen mating yard" - but see close-mating too

Drone honey bees – rearing and maintenance
https://powell.ca.uky.edu/files/drone-bee-rearing-and-maintenance_002_0.pdf

"Considering the density of colonies around the congregation area and average flight ranges of males, the results suggested that most colonies within the recruitment parameter of a DCA delegated equal proportions of males to a DCA. Consequently, the relatedness of a queen to her mates – and ultimately the inbreeding coefficient of the progeny – should be minimal." Bee Culture

http://www.biobees.com/library/bee_breeding/DroneCongregationAreas.pdf"...drones and queens from the same hive do not choose the same DCA"

Unfortunately a number of the links don’t work, I also can’t find references in those that do that refer to thriving treatment free populations referred to in your previous post.

 

[Beesnaturally]

Is that 30% loss an improvement over the last 13 years? Are you replacing your stock from survivors or the swarms and cut outs you collect?

I haven't done cut-outs for about 5 years, and the only swarms I collect are mostly my own - about 6 last year. My numbers have fallen, in fits and starts, from over 100 at a summer peak about 5 years ago. This is part design: I decided 100 was too many and aimed to stabilise at around 60 - thinking 70-80 at end of season and 50-60 at beginning. But I did intend to, and try to lift numbers from my best colonies last year. It didn't work well - mating was particularly difficult (again, round here, few had a crop to speak of, and all complain of mating - we really didn't get much of a summer) - so I went into last winter trying to stretch what I had. Its a learning process, and it (live and let die) is also a process in itself.

Given that I don't treat or manipulate at all, and don't re-queen at all - and until a couple of years ago didn't replace comb at all - I reckon my average losses are pretty good. And I have genetic material that I think is well above average in terms of the qualities I'm aiming for. That's the really important bit. But yes, recent losses are disappointing.

 

[Beesnaturally]

Unfortunately a number of the links don’t work, I also can’t find references in those that do that refer to thriving treatment free populations referred to in your previous post.

You could try harder, or be patient. We'll get there.

I don't collect links unless they say something important about the topic. It isn't always obvious. Tell me of one you've seen, and I'll tell you why I thought it worth saving.

 

[user 20297]

Yes. 2 were lost to mice, 2 to wind, and I combined a couple. A few were too-small/new queens in nucs that didn't have what it took. Most died from late Feb to mid April, often surprising me, as previous checks had shown good development. It is a high percentage for me (its been as low as 10% and more usually between 15 and 20%) but I am in good company: around here at least there have been reports of widespread and catastrophic losses. I was told today of a chap who had last his entire stock of 32 hives.

Phew! That more detailed breakdown is a relief!

 

[BugsInABox]

I haven't done cut-outs for about 5 years, and the only swarms I collect are mostly my own - about 6 last year. My numbers have fallen, in fits and starts, from over 100 at a summer peak about 5 years ago. This is part design: I decided 100 was too many and aimed to stabilise at around 60 - thinking 70-80 at end of season and 50-60 at beginning. But I did intend to, and try to lift numbers from my best colonies last year. It didn't work well - mating was particularly difficult (again, round here, few had a crop to speak of, and all complain of mating - we really didn't get much of a summer) - so I went into last winter trying to stretch what I had. Its a learning process, and it (live and let die) is also a process in itself.

Given that I don't treat or manipulate at all, and don't re-queen at all - and until a couple of years ago didn't replace comb at all - I reckon my average losses are pretty good. And I have genetic material that I think is well above average in terms of the qualities I'm aiming for. That's the really important bit. But yes, recent losses are disappointing.

Well if prospective conclusions from the numbers disolve with enquiry
Aren't we back then to:

But what are those results?
...
I'm not sure though that you're observations, of both feild and literature, are empirical enough that much can be extrapolated to other scenarios.

and

...what you think you see might be happening ...

 

[Beesnaturally]

Well if prospective conclusions from the numbers disolve with enquiry

That's a nice word salad.

 

[F.F.Stung]

Sorry but that's simply incorrect. A number of treatments have been approved because there is data showing at least a set level of efficacy. For example, Oxalic acid sublimation has repeatedly been demonstrated to be effective when applied in a specific way at a specific dose and data is available to back this up. Variations in efficacy for medications are usually due to variations in how the treatment is applied as opposed to following the data sheets.

My untreated hive has been doing fine for years. If I had treated it from the time I got it until now, could some expert tell me how much better(or worse) it would be today. A 5% error each way would be acceptable.

 

[user 20297]

That's a nice word salad.

Steak is a nicer word.

 

[polymath]

Apologise if I have missed it in this thread but could not see anyone referencing the work that Tom Sealey has done on this. He writes about it i Lives of Bees and here in a talk explains how between 1977 and present day the bees in Arnot forest have gone treatment free, and survived, well okay about a few percent did and then re-generated from that. Anyway here is a video of the what he found: 'The Lives of Bees' with Thomas D. Seeley - CornellCast

 

[Ian123]

Apologise if I have missed it in this thread but could not see anyone referencing the work that Tom Sealey has done on this. He writes about it i Lives of Bees and here in a talk explains how between 1977 and present day the bees in Arnot forest have gone treatment free, and survived, well okay about a few percent did and then re-generated from that. Anyway here is a video of the what he found: 'The Lives of Bees' with Thomas D. Seeley - CornellCast

Yes his work has been posted, small nest cavities and frequent swarms was the mechanism of varroa control. Not necessarily bees developing resistance. I’m sure there was some work that removed these bees and found they succumbed as readily as any others, when removed from that environment. Like most beekeeper claims of tolerance, other reasons or beekeeper management is the factor of varroa control…