Treatment Free doesn't work

[Beesnaturally]

Discuss

 

[gwt_uk]

Last Autumn I decided to experiment and not to treat two colonies for Varroa. They were both located in a more isolated apiary to my other hives. Both survived the winter and one especially was well ahead of all my other hives in terms of bee numbers at the end of March. I am aware that this was not a scientific experiment but certainly worthy of some thought.

 

[JamezF]

I think the first decision has to be "What criteria do you think should be met in order to feel confident that it does work?"

James

 

[BugsInABox]

What do you mean by treatment free?
Isnt it a spectrum from test/monitor & euthanise through to total hands off and let nature take its course. I've a lot of time for Randy Oliver (Scientific Beekeeping); I think he's quite persuiave that, responsible, treatment free stock improvement requires monitoring and euthanasia but that complete hands off is irresponsible.
BIAB

 

[Mabee]

Last Autumn I decided to experiment and not to treat two colonies for Varroa. They were both located in a more isolated apiary to my other hives. Both survived the winter and one especially was well ahead of all my other hives in terms of bee numbers at the end of March. I am aware that this was not a scientific experiment but certainly worthy of some thought.

I don’t think you can compare if they are in a more isolated apiary. The difference in sites alone could cause there to be differences in their build up.

 

[gwt_uk]

I don’t think you can compare if they are in a more isolated apiary. The difference in sites alone could cause there to be differences in their build up.

Yes could have been many factors influencing build up

 

[Boston Bees]

Discuss

As we are not students, and you are not our teacher, this isn't a particularly great way to start a debate, and is unlikely to elicit the desired response.

Most forum members are of too independent a mindset to respond to instructions.

 

[Beesnaturally]

As we are not students, and you are not our teacher, this isn't a particularly great way to start a debate, and is unlikely to elicit the desired response.

Apart from the usual candidates doing their best to pour on cold water, its seems to be working fine. There is no hurry, try giving it a bit of space.

 

[Wilco]

I hope it can work, and having spoken to @pargyle it seems to occur for him. However, when claims are made on this I like to know methods, see actual data to back up claims and also evidence that's it's repeatable by others. This is because for me, the worst case scenario is none of my colonies survive and thus it's not a risk I'm willing to take at present. For example, with @pargyle I have spoken to him and know his methods but (and no offence intended) whilst I believe him to be honest with considerable integrity, ultimately I only have his word that his colonies survive and are treatment free and in terms of the evidence hierarchy what he says is somewhere between anecdote and possibly a case series. I also do not know of others replicating those methods, successfully or not. Thus whilst I watch with interest and hope, I'm not prepared to risk my bees yet.

 

[user 20297]

I hope it can work, and having spoken to @pargyle it seems to occur for him. However, when claims are made on this I like to know methods, see actual data to back up claims and also evidence that's it's repeatable by others. This is because for me, the worst case scenario is none of my colonies survive and thus it's not a risk I'm willing to take at present. For example, with @pargyle I have spoken to him and know his methods but (and no offence intended) whilst I believe him to be honest with considerable integrity, ultimately I only have his word that his colonies survive and are treatment free and in terms of the evidence hierarchy what he says is somewhere between anecdote and possibly a case series. I also do not know of others replicating those methods, successfully or not. Thus whilst I watch with interest and hope, I'm not prepared to risk my bees yet.

It's the same with treatments, they don't all necessarily always have replicable results for every colony of bees or for every beekeeper in every situation.
In common with "regular" beekeeping, choosing an alternative beekeeping style is a creative juggling act; it's just that if you do it in its purest form you have a different set of balls to play with.
But you can mix in some of the ideas from all styles of beekeeping; that's what I've been doing since Day One. Mind you, I'm still only on Day 672.

 

[Wilco]

It's the same with treatments, they don't all necessarily always have replicable results for every colony of bees or for every beekeeper in every situation.
In common with "regular" beekeeping, choosing an alternative beekeeping style is a creative juggling act; it's just that if you do it in its purest form you have a different set of balls to play with.
But you can mix in some of the ideas from all styles of beekeeping; that's what I've been doing since Day One. Mind you, I'm still only on Day 672.

Sorry but that's simply incorrect. A number of treatments have been approved because there is data showing at least a set level of efficacy. For example, Oxalic acid sublimation has repeatedly been demonstrated to be effective when applied in a specific way at a specific dose and data is available to back this up. Variations in efficacy for medications are usually due to variations in how the treatment is applied as opposed to following the data sheets.

 

[Anduril]

This is also available somewhere on the forum.
https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/199215523.pdfThis is a lengthy paper from 2018, DWV-B has a protective role to play in the survival rate of colonies, which is dominant in England and Wales. Results for the US are also included. Treatment Free beekeepers were enrolled into the research. However they don't know when DWV-B will stop protecting and end up killing colonies.
As far as B+ and his research into treatment free, I have read a research paper about Carniolan bees having the ability to open cells of varroa infected bees.

 

[user 20297]

Sorry but that's simply incorrect. A number of treatments have been approved because there is data showing at least a set level of efficacy. For example, Oxalic acid sublimation has repeatedly been demonstrated to be effective when applied in a specific way at a specific dose and data is available to back this up. Variations in efficacy for medications are usually due to variations in how the treatment is applied as opposed to following the data sheets.

Have you not read or heard of anyone who has used treatments "to-the-letter" finding that they weren't as effective as expected?
I have; presumably, that's because in practise, some of the "specifics" when treating varied too far from standard. But as we live in an imperfect world and as no bee-situation is ever the same as another, that is to be expected.
I am not expressing an anti-treatment point of view, but I see advantage in keeping an open mind.

 

[pargyle]

I hope it can work, and having spoken to @pargyle it seems to occur for him. However, when claims are made on this I like to know methods, see actual data to back up claims and also evidence that's it's repeatable by others. This is because for me, the worst case scenario is none of my colonies survive and thus it's not a risk I'm willing to take at present. For example, with @pargyle I have spoken to him and know his methods but (and no offence intended) whilst I believe him to be honest with considerable integrity, ultimately I only have his word that his colonies survive and are treatment free and in terms of the evidence hierarchy what he says is somewhere between anecdote and possibly a case series. I also do not know of others replicating those methods, successfully or not. Thus whilst I watch with interest and hope, I'm not prepared to risk my bees yet.

Well .... You can look back over my several thousand posts and you can see I've been beating my treatment free path since I started keeping bees. You can believe me or not ... I really don't worry what anyone else thinks or believes. I don't encourage anyone to follow in my footsteps and I'm not on a crusade, my bees are not super bees or hygienic bees (I haven't tested them) and I don't claim they are varroa free - there are varroa in my colonies but not excessive levels - they fluctuate.

I've said, on many occasions, that there are many factors that influence the ability of bees to remain TF and they are complex and I don't believe they are easily repeatable.

I said earlier, I've just taken over two colonies that were varroa factories belonging to a forum member and they were treated for varroa when they arrived and I know they were clean - indeed, after treatment there were few signs of any mites in the colonies (they were heavily treated in the Autumn).

I've transferred them into the same hives as my other colonies and they will now be kept in exactly the same conditions and location as my other colonies - it will be interesting to see how they fare.

I've no axe to grind, I'm not an evangelist for treatment free and I don't intend commenting further in this thread unless specifically asked a question ... how we look after our bees is a personal decision - I don't feel the need to either justify or explain any further than I have in the past.

This thread will stand on its own or die, personally, I'm not sure what the point of it is - an opening post that just invites others to discuss is not the most auspicious start to a thread and I would have expected more.

But .. despite that - what we won't permit is it to descend into an ever decreasing spiral of pointless comments or unsubstantiated argument.

 

[Wilco]

Have you not read or heard of anyone who has used treatments "to-the-letter" finding that they weren't as effective as expected?
I have; presumably, that's because in practise, some of the "specifics" when treating varied too far from standard. But as we live in an imperfect world and as no bee-situation is ever the same as another, that is to be expected.
I am not expressing an anti-treatment point of view, but I see advantage in keeping an open mind.

Not really no. In clinical work I've also heard of plenty of stories of people not actually following things to the letter but not realising.

 

[user 20833]

Varroa mites are horrible things that are probably involved in the death of more colonies than anything else. There is also a big difference between 'surviving' and thriving. People can survive with all sorts of worms, ticks, fleas and infections but I think they are happier without such things. To me, it is my responsibility to care for the welfare of my bees. Plus, if they are sick they make less honey and spread the problem around the area.

If I test them with an alcohol wash/sugar shake and they have a low mite count then they don't need treating BUT if the count is high I believe that it is both cruel and counterproductive not to treat. Some colonies seem to keep mite numbers lower than others but unless we count them we have no idea. So treating or not treating should not be an ideological or theoretical thing - it should be based on the mite levels in the hive & treatment should be applied when numbers reach a certain threshold.

 

[Beesnaturally]

If I test them with an alcohol wash/sugar shake and they have a low mite count then they don't need treating BUT if the count is high I believe that it is both cruel and counterproductive not to treat. Some colonies seem to keep mite numbers lower than others but unless we count them we have no idea. So treating or not treating should not be an ideological or theoretical thing - it should be based on the mite levels in the hive & treatment should be applied when numbers reach a certain threshold.

We know that resistance to, and tolerance of, varroa takes the form of bee behaviours that are heritable. If, therefore, we regard those that don't need treating as having better resistance than those that do, it would make sense to save the latter by treating, but to requeen with daughters of the more resistant hives, wouldn't it?

That way we would be aiding the genetic spread of resistance, rather than, as your way does, undermining it.

Does that make sense?

 

[madasafish]

I treat .I tell people what my honey yields are and my annual losses of hives.

I have yet to find a TF beekeeper who is open about yields and losses. And who is open about what their TF means.

 

[mbc]

I prefer shot put

 

[Erichalfbee]

@Beesnaturally Mike, You breed varroa resistant bees. How about letting a few of us have a couple of queens each. I’d buy two. Then we could see for ourselves.
I had two queens from B+ and while I did treat them their did have consistently lower levels of varroa than the other colonies. I lost my bottle in treating them. This time I would stick to the experiment.