Top bee space or bottom bee space?

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Hanwell, London
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Hello.
I’m looking to buy my first hive and am thinking of going with nationals as they are so standardised ( unless anyone has a wider option/ brand than this) but am curious about which one is better, top or bottom bee space or even if you can get hives with both?
Thank you.
 
Hello.
I’m looking to buy my first hive and am thinking of going with nationals as they are so standardised ( unless anyone has a wider option/ brand than this) but am curious about which one is better, top or bottom bee space or even if you can get hives with both?
Thank you.
Nationals, as a standard, are bottom beespace so if you plump for top beespace you are immediately cornering yourself into a restricted market when it comes to second had/discounted equipment.
It makes little difference anyway apart from crown boards being simpler - it's all in the mind.
 
makes little difference
Yes, don't fret about the choice, Mr Badger. One slight advantage is that on TBS the box rim won't get glued with propolis to the ends of the top bars in the box below.

going with nationals
Better to spend time considering the box material, quality of construction, thermal efficiency, weight and longevity.

My money goes here: https://www.abelo.co.uk/beekeeping-category/national-hive/poly-hives-national/
 
Nationals, as a standard, are bottom beespace so if you plump for top beespace you are immediately cornering yourself into a restricted market when it comes to second had/discounted equipment.
It makes little difference anyway apart from crown boards being simpler - it's all in the mind.
That’s great to know then. Thank you
 
Yes, don't fret about the choice, Mr Badger. One slight advantage is that on TBS the box rim won't get glued with propolis to the ends of the top bars in the box below.


Better to spend time considering the box material, quality of construction, thermal efficiency, weight and longevity.

My money goes here: https://www.abelo.co.uk/beekeeping-category/national-hive/poly-hives-national/
Thank you Eric.
The Abel stuff looks great, it’s very pricey but I’d hope it lasts a lot longer than its wooden versions without any need to paint.
How does it work cleaning it at the bend of the year as I’ve seen people just blow torching wooden nationals?
Also do normal wooden frames fit it or abelos own?
 
hope it lasts a lot longer than its wooden versions without any need to paint.
if you chose cedar, no need to paint, and as long as you don't abuse them, they will last forever, I know of boxes still being used that were made in the 1930's
 
Abel stuff looks great, it’s very pricey
Poly prices rocketed during or after the Covid/Ukraine war period, but wood price rises are even worse. Good thing about poly is that it's is repairable and tough and will outlast you and me. If you buy Abelo, stick with the 11-frame box and old-style roof package.

normal wooden frames
Yes. Abelo boxes (indeed all UK poly) take standard National DN/SN frames. Another Abelo plus is that the boxes need no dummy board, the false end wall usual in National boxes to ease removal of the first frame. Abelo allows for 11 frames plus about 5mm at both box ends, and levering the frames away from the wall is enough to give space to remove the first frame. Make sure to leave your frames butted really tight when an inspection is over, and then lever the block of them to equalise both end spaces.

blow torching wooden nationals
Unless you live in area with disease risk - check the NBU disease reports & maps - then annual scorching is not essential, though good practice. Poly can be scraped and bleached if you have concern as above or that, for example, CBPV virus is in your system.

Abel stuff looks great, it’s very pricey
Yes, it is well-designed and well-made, but bear in mind that though at your stage of the game the investment in kit is heavy, the price of real local honey is also high and you will in time be able to recoup that expense.
 
I was concerned with that aspect of brining more plastic into the world also.
I love how easy the wooden boxes are to clean at the end of each year and can’t see any wagers how the abello will hold up to scraping at the end of each year compared to tried and tested wood.

Although one thing that looks very interesting about the abello hives is that due to their insulting style people say that the broad up a month earlier than wooden which means more honey, anyone have experience of this?
 
It's not necessarily the case, I started with Cedar and then introduced poly and ran both for years and saw no difference that I could attribute to the hive material. There are differences between colonies and this can be the case if all hives are poly or if all hives are Cedar.
I only use Cedar hives now.
 
Wooden hives are recyclable, poly hives
Recycling of poly is possible and was discussed here a few years ago, but when considering environmental impact it may be more useful to add to the equation the real cost of chopping down Western red cedar on the other side of the Atlantic (so reducing removal of atmospheric CO2), processing it, shipping to the UK, transporting and machining it into a hive.

An Abelo is produced by steam moulding in Poland and I reckon that shipping of the raw material, production and export to the UK would make for an interesting comparison of bigger-picture environmental impact of the two materials.

Plastic is never going to disappear from the planet but what ought to go is the wasteful and unnecessary use of plastic by thoughtless humans. Donald Trump surprised me last week when he cancelled the use of paper straws and promoted a return to plastic, but really, he has a point in that paper straws are not fit for purpose, plastic coated, non-recyclable, and produce greenhouse gas when decomposing. Bottom line: humans are the problem, not plastic, and who the hell needs a straw, anyway? Just drink from the cup!

scraping at the end of each year compared to tried and tested wood.
Bear in mind that poly has been used widely in Europe for 50 years and more, not just by hobby beekeepers but commercially by the thousand, and the reality is cleaning is no big deal. After a season with bees the propolis coating seals poly and surfaces can be scraped just like wood.

due to their insulting style people say that the broad up a month earlier than wooden which means more honey, anyone have experience of this?
Thermal insulation is the principle factor that ought to concern the beekeeper because it certainly concerns the colony, which is why they choose (generally) a nest site with good insulation winter and summer. How do you reckon 200mm of a timber tree trunk compares to the tiddly 19mm a beekeeper gives them?

Murray McGregor at Denrosa Apiaries is clear on the advantages of poly and as he runs 5,000+ colonies has had the opportunity to conclude that poly enables the production of about 15% more honey. The reason for this is that the colony has less need to thermo-regulate the nest - either cooler or warmer - and consumes less fuel to do so. Derek Mitchell is the researcher of hive thermodynamics and an essential read; here is a taster: https://www.ritehive.com/science-of...RfbXnGVJc1muMBDpTzvbxxWsloQuNo2vSlUQvY6UHzkUU

which means more honey
Yield for the beekeeper is better governed by putting hives in areas with good forage (what dear Finman would call 'good pastures') and managing really strong colonies, not just bees that fill one BB. Even in a poor season a strong colony will bring in honey (though of course, they may eat it) and it is worth looking at annual amateur yields published by the BBKA from member info: sometimes it's in single figures, because no matter how good the forage or bees, the beekeeper may not yet be up to the task of managing swarming, varroa and winter survival to enable the colony to build big in Spring.

If you buy wood then adapt the kit to improve thermal efficiency: seal the roof vents and fit a piece of 50mm PIR to the crownboard; this top insulation will increase thermal efficiency. By contrast, a ventilated roof and a crownboard with two holes (in which are supposed to fit the fairly useless Porter bee escapes to clear bees from supers) is no good at all.

Innocent novices (I was one) had no clue and left the holes open in winter because, er, I was told that the colony needed ventilation. Add an open-mesh floor to this set-up and you will have made a chimney that loses nest heat through the roof, and that obliges bees to burn fuel to work hard to compensate for the beekeeper led unwittingly by catalogue pictures. End result: less honey, for you and the bees.
 
but when considering environmental impact it may be more useful to add to the equation the real cost of chopping down Western red cedar on the other side of the Atlantic (so reducing removal of atmospheric CO2), processing it, shipping to the UK, transporting and machining it into a hive.
Only if people are so superficial as to plump for the Canadian stuff - nothing at all wrong with homegrown British cedar, it's just an affectation led prejudice.
 
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