Top bar hive - comb going wrong way

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suavecarve

New Bee
Joined
Mar 10, 2012
Messages
10
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Location
Headley
Hive Type
National
Number of Hives
2
I have 2 TBH and although I put some wax to learn teh bees which way i wanted them to build their combs they took no notice of my directions and now the combs have ended up at 90 degrees to where i put in my request.
I am going to lose the 2 TBH (plywood is cheap but aint good) but wont buy new nationals til next year as I want to join the 2 TBH colonies to the 2 nationals I have for winter.
I have a spare catching hive and can take them into work (as I want to move them 20 yards as well) and was wondering what to do.

I think Queen catching and bunging her into my small hive with some stores and brood but with the combs going the other way there is real potential for not getting all the necessary comb in there and hanging it right. Then take teh hive away and bring it back then amalgamate then do the same with eh second hive (Or i could leave that one for winter as it is only 1 year old)

Any suggestions on how best to transfer the perpendicular comb into a small national without upsetting them too much. ie if i capture the queen and put her in the small national will they all leave the brood and honey that is there and therefore making my job a lot easier (obviously getting the honey before teh wasps)

Ideas gratefully received
 
I would wait to next year. Very messy operation, much broken comb.

Ideal way to disrupt colonies before winter and weaken them.

Been there - waited from September 2012 until April 2013 to do it and then straightening comb was a MESS.
 
Yes, wait for spring. Can't you then put a National on top of the TBH with a suitable board in-between, and wait for the queen to move up into the National?
Kitta
 
We're now halfway through August - I agree with the advice to leave the situation 'as is' until next spring, as sorting out a whole hive full of 'natural comb' is going to be quite a challenge, and very disruptive indeed - especially if more than 4 or 5 topbars are involved.

One of the problems you'll be facing is how best to lift multiple bars without trashing combs in the process. One of the better ideas I've heard is to first establish the extent of the problem by removing end bars and peeking below - using a mirror if needs be - and marking the affected bars. Then place 'straps' of plywood across the affected bars, and screw them together. Then it's a case of cutting away any remaining attachments, and lifting all the affected bars out in one go - which will undoubtedly require a helper (or even two). Once out of the hive, the comb array can then be inverted, say onto a table, where each comb can then be carefully sliced away, and re-fixed onto whatever kind of new bar or frame you have in mind.

But spring is the best time to be doing this - as it's a complex and lengthy procedure, and the bees will be in a much better 'mood' than they are likely to be right now.

As your TBH's are made of plywood, you might want to give some thought to providing extra insulation around the sides, and especially the top, for the forthcoming winter.

Wishing you the very best of luck.

LJ
 
Yes, wait for spring. Can't you then put a National on top of the TBH with a suitable board in-between, and wait for the queen to move up into the National?
Kitta

Reading your post, LJ, I realised my suggestion won't work as a TBH does not have openings between the bars. Sorry. Bad suggestion. Ignore my post.
Kitta
 
Reading your post, LJ, I realised my suggestion won't work as a TBH does not have openings between the bars. Sorry. Bad suggestion. Ignore my post.
Kitta

No its not a bad suggestion and could work with a bit of adjustment and not forgetting the bees cooperation
 
I would wait until spring and forget the cross combed bars ... I would start a new hive on the same spot and just shook swarm them all into the new hive before the queen starts really laying in earnest.

My girls built wonderfully straight comb on foundationless 14 x 12 frames in my long hive - but I used a triangular piece of timber onto which I painted melted beeswax. The initial combs were all built by the bees in a catenary and then they built out to the sides bars.

It may be that your wax starters were not quite prominent enough and the bees decided they would build the other way !
 
Maybe it's worth commenting that the natural instinct of bees is to draw comb along the longest dimension of any rectangular cavity, and where that cavity is square, they'll invariably draw comb diagonally from corner to corner ! That's not guaranteed of course, it's bees we're talking about ... :)

Placing bars across the shorter dimension of a long cavity for bees to hang comb from is quite contrary to their natural instincts. But once a comb has been drawn onto a top bar to a beek's satisfaction, the remaining combs will then be drawn using that comb orientation as a guide. So - for successful Top Bar Hive management it's very important to get off to a good (i.e. straight) start, re-arranging any embryonic combs at the earliest possible stage.

I do wish more emphasis was placed on this fundamental aspect, as so many new beeks, and those who've been used to the constraining features of frames and foundation, very often run into this problem when setting-up a Top Bar Hive for the first time.

One good technique when starting a hive 'from scratch' is to reduce the volume of the hive by the use of a partition board - which also makes the shape of the reduced hive conducive to the drawing of straight combs. :)

LJ
 
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Maybe it's worth commenting that the natural instinct of bees is to draw comb along the longest dimension of any rectangular cavity, and where that cavity is square, they'll invariably draw comb diagonally from corner to corner ! That's not guaranteed of course, it's bees we're talking about ... :)


LJ

got any papers/books where this behaviour has been studied? looks interesting
 
Bees are opportunists ... if you provide a structure that they can use and it meets the bee space requirements then they will use it ... that's why frames are so successful in providing straight comb. Top bars really need a very positive starter strip to make sure they follow the direction of the bars. There are a lot of TBH owners who have moved away from a line of beeswax or a groove as there is a propensity for bees to cross comb with these minimal guides.

Either a wax starter strip of foundation about 10-15mm deep or a timber bead of a similar dimension seem to be the most favoured 'starters' - both need to be well attached to the underside of the top bar.
 
got any papers/books where this behaviour has been studied? looks interesting

I don't know of any. This gem I picked-up from the Feral Bee guys over at: http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/FeralBeeProject/ following an enquiry there about minimum dimensions of a modern-day feral-chosen cavity (in-between wall-cladding etc) and whether there was always a *minimum* number of combs drawn, and/or whether there was usually a typical number of combs drawn in the event of space being no problem (as in a church steeple etc). For some reason that stuff was of interest to me at the time - dunno exactly why, now.
(Having returned to beekeeping after several decades away, and with many years of engineering experience under my belt, I think I was trying to evaluate how far life in a man-made hive had strayed from what the bees would themselves choose, given the opportunity ...)

I picked up the message from them that building comb 'lengthways' is always the norm in feral cavities. From that info I then started looking at the Bienenkiste hive, which afaik, is the only Top Bar Hive design which runs comb along the length of a long cavity, rather than across it. Not perhaps surprisingly, the Bienenkiste beeks have NEVER have a problem with bees drawing comb across their boxes. So with that observation seemingly confirming what the Feral guys have observed, I've now taken this to be 'a given' - certainly I've not seen or heard of anything to cause me to question the veracity of this.

Hope this helps

LJ
 
I would wait until spring and forget the cross combed bars ... I would start a new hive on the same spot and just shook swarm them all into the new hive before the queen starts really laying in earnest.

...

It may be that your wax starters were not quite prominent enough and the bees decided they would build the other way !

By next spring the comb is likely to be too firmly attached to the sides of the hive to be able to remove anything intact, so shook swarming would be very difficult.

I'd be tempted to pull the outer top bars away from the comb - it's likely to either contain stores or be empty. Remove empty comb and put it in a bucket, then use a knife to cut directly beneath the adjacent bars. This should leave the comb intact, and save destroying any brood. Dummy off, and put a cover over any empty space, and put a brood box containing frames above the brood area. If the TBH entrance is also closed then the bees will naturally move into the new box.

Good theory, I hope. No idea if it'd work, because I don't have a top bar hive.
 
By next spring the comb is likely to be too firmly attached to the sides of the hive to be able to remove anything intact, so shook swarming would be very difficult.

I'd be tempted to pull the outer top bars away from the comb - it's likely to either contain stores or be empty. Remove empty comb and put it in a bucket, then use a knife to cut directly beneath the adjacent bars. This should leave the comb intact, and save destroying any brood. Dummy off, and put a cover over any empty space, and put a brood box containing frames above the brood area. If the TBH entrance is also closed then the bees will naturally move into the new box.

Good theory, I hope. No idea if it'd work, because I don't have a top bar hive.

That's a possibility.

I had rather assumed that there would be little opportunity to save the comb - as they have built it lengthways along the TBH I don't think that they would attach it to the sides of the hive - at least not substantially.

After moving the original hive a fair bit to one side, place a new hive in the original spot and then set about the cross combed hive. (By spring and just before they really start to build up there will be fewer bees anyway and by moving the hive any fliers should return to the original site and be out of your way).

My thinking was to slice under, say, two or three of the top bars - might need to make a knife with a blade that is bent at the bottom at right angles so it can just slide along the underside of the bars. By spring the wax should have hardened and even removing a few bars from the top of the comb should leave the comb largely intact. Then leave a few bars in place and then remove the next few top bars. If you then slice vertically down through the comb you might get lucky and find that you could lift out a section of comb attached to the bars you have left in place.

[Alternatively, cut the top bars away from a section but leave the top bars either side of this in place then cut down vertically outside of the bars you leave in place - you then have attachment at either end of the comb section you are going to remove].

By removing some of the top bars you will be able to look down through the comb to see what is going off and perhaps even be able to blow, smoke or otherwise encourage the bees to leave the old comb and go down into your new hive.

If you are going to a National then you should put either an empty super or an empty brood box on top of the new hive to act as a funnel. If you are careful you should be able to shake or brush the bees from the comb into the new hive. As long as you get the queen ino the new hive then the bees will follow her anyway. When they have gone down into the lower box remove the box you've used as a funnel, crown board on and roof - jobs a good 'un !

You are going to have the health benefits of a shook swarm, they will go off like a train with a bit of feeding in the new hive and you have a load of comb that may or may not contain some honey that you could get out by crush and strain and a load of nice beeswax to do as you will with.

You may need a helper depending upon how big a slice of the comb you decide to take - it depends upon how much and how heavy the comb is and how well attached it is to the top bars. Four hands for the lifting out and shaking the bees off may be better than two - six might be even better !

I don't think it's viable to try and save the comb ... if you do it early enough in spring you are not going to lose much brood and you say you are changing from TBH anyway so the comb is not much use to you.

In the meantime as Derek says - concentrate on getting them throught the winter - your hives may well need a fair amount of insulation as they are plywood - even 18mm should have a good layer of kingspan attached to the sides and a really good layer of insulation on the top. If the comb hasn't filled the full cavity of your TBH you should consider dummying it down with some follower boards to the point where the comb ends and fill the remaining empty cavity with some insulating material (bags of polystyrene chips, wood flakes - basically anything that does not conduct heat and can fill the empty space).

Good luck.
 
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I did read an article about the direction Bees build wild comb.
Does anyone have any experience of this?

My thought is would this have happened if the Hive was placed at a 90% angle to its present position.

And yes definately need to reduce the Hive space to begin with,
 
By next spring the comb is likely to be too firmly attached to the sides of the hive to be able to remove anything intact, so shook swarming would be very difficult.

I hope. No idea if it'd work, because I don't have a top bar hive.

My experience this year was a sharp serrated knife (breadknife is what I use) - slid carefully down the sides and sawn gently will cleanly cut all connections to the side walls without difficulty.
 
Guys, some great advice and thoughts throughout.
I will be waiting for spring now and atke action to protect them over winter.
I like the idea of connecting the top bars with a couple of perpendicular bars screwed into the top bars.
I think the battle plan will be to raise the TBH above a new national, pick up the comb via the perpendicular cross bars and straight into the national brood without any frames in it and slightly adjust if necessary for balancing them. Then remove the TBH when they are settled and burn it.
They are a nice thought and are cheap (70 nicker) however I might be dipping out on 50lb of honey per hive.
PS if anyone with a Top bar hive wants to buy a queen excluder DONT buy one from LEEWAY WOODWORK on EBAY. or buy anything from him. Delivery time was a month. He forgets to send them by the time you have exchanged e mails the 3 month period for leaving awful feedback is gone. He sells other beestuff as well.
I think i ll start a new post up warning potential buyers.
 

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