Too cold to treat my bees?

[drex]

I know OA is organic, but it's still a chemical. I use it. However if drop was zero, why do a 2nd and 3rd vape anyway?

 

[Ian123]

I know OA is organic, but it's still a chemical. I use it. However if drop was zero, why do a 2nd and 3rd vape anyway?

Because he’s new and probably just got the wrong end of the stick/advice!

 

[Erichalfbee]

Ah but the drop could be zero because all the mites are in the brood

 

[Xander]

Thanks Ian, I didn't know that. I was just following what I'd read online but that makes sense if there is no brood present. I'll have to invest in a boroscope or learn to read the tray for cappings next year.

 

[Xander]

Sorry I didn't clarify, the drop was 5 on the first vape, 3 on the second and 0 on the third. I didn't think mite drop was a particularly good indicator so I did the recommended 3 to cover all stages of brood rearing. My queen was laying like a train in October and I've read that not all queens stop laying.

 

[JamezF]

I know OA is organic, but it's still a chemical.

I'd suggest that there's a need to be careful with terminology here because the words can colour perception. There's a fair bit of emotive baggage associated with the words.

Lots of things (anything you can touch, one might argue) are "chemicals" or combinations of chemicals, some of which are abundant in the natural world, some less so and more cost-effectively made artificially and others are probably only ever man-made. Honey is a mixture of chemicals, including water, fructose and glucose. Water is itself a chemical. The smoke from a smoker will quite probably contain tens if not hundreds of chemicals. Depending on the context people might mean any of those groups when they use the word "chemical". I'm slightly reminded of the way that some people use "E-numbers" as a sort of shorthand for "Unhealthy stuff I avoid eating when it's in food" without being aware of what, say, E164, E901, E948 or E1510 are.

Oxalic acid is produced naturally in many plants, perhaps most infamously in rhubarb, but also parsley, spinach and members of the brassica family. I'm not certain, but it may only exist in the plants in ionic form and only produce oxalic acid as we'd recognise it when isolated. These days it's much easier to produce in volume by industrial methods than, say, trying to extract it from something like sorrel.

Looking at things another way, if I took a tank of seawater, allowed the water to evaporate and cleaned up the residue, would you put it on your chips? How about if I got myself a lump of sodium and reacted it with some chlorine gas in a chemistry lab to make a white crystalline substance? It's the same chemical in both cases (though actually the seawater form would almost certainly contain traces of many others).

OA is called an organic acid, but that has nothing to do with the Soil Association. I'd check with my son but since he's a student he's probably not out of bed yet, however in the chemistry sense as far as I recall an organic compound is simply one that contains carbon<->carbon or carbon<->hydrogen bonds. In the sense chemists use the word there's nothing that should be inferred to mean that the compound is naturally occurring or somehow safer however. Some plastics could well be considered organic compounds, for instance. Poisons, too.

James

 

[ericbeaumont]

The bees managed to produce a new queen

A brood gap between laying queens will have restricted varroa numbers somewhat, which is in your favour.

should I treat now with Oxalic or leave them in peace

By now the queen will probably have begun laying and if sealed brood is present, a trickle will be of limited value. On the other hand, there may be no brood so you may as well get on and do it. The weather will be slightly milder after mid-week, which may help spread the trickle.

 

[Amari]

Oxalic acid is produced naturally in many plants, perhaps most infamously in rhubarb, but also parsley, spinach and members of the brassica family. I'm not certain, but it may only exist in the plants in ionic form and only produce oxalic acid as we'd recognise it when isolated.

And in us! Combined with calcium it can form calcium oxalate kidney stones. Ouch!

 

[The New beekeeper]

Good morning Norman, I was in a similar position to you a couple of months ago. I treated with apivar late on and wasn't sure if it would be too cold to open up to remove the strips but I was reassured after asking the same question and it turned out they were clustered and very docile. I think I only lost one bee!
I bought an oxalic vaporiser on Amazon for £25 and vaped on 20th, 25th and 30th Dec.
Mite drop was zero.
My "main hive" is doing just fine and even the queen I banked in a 3 frame nuc in late September is still going strong.
As regards splitting the cluster lifting the super I'd be worried about damaging the queen of she's too sluggish to get out of the way when you put it down, there may be a lump of brace comb or something might trap her, hence vaping seems to be the answer.

I bought an oxalic vaporiser on Amazon for £25 and vaped on 20th, 25th and 30th Dec.
Hi there sorry to butt in, Could you tell me what power source do you use for the vaporiser, as it seems to have a pair of cables indicating should be used with a battery. If so is there a way that could be used with a charger. Thank you

 

[Gilberdyke John]

I bought an oxalic vaporiser on Amazon for £25 and vaped on 20th, 25th and 30th Dec.
Hi there sorry to butt in, Could you tell me what power source do you use for the vaporiser, as it seems to have a pair of cables indicating should be used with a battery. If so is there a way that could be used with a charger. Thank you

I'd not expect a typical domestic car battery charger to have enough oomph to be capable of heating the pan in anything like a workable time. Simpler to get an invalid scooter battery which is easier to carry about.

 

[drex]

Invalid scooter batteries cost an arm and a leg. I think Amari on here uses a jump start battery, which is very portable and I think he says it does about 5 hives. Am sure he will correct if I am wrong.

 

[Ian123]

Thanks Ian, I didn't know that. I was just following what I'd read online but that makes sense if there is no brood present. I'll have to invest in a boroscope or learn to read the tray for cappings next year.

Most of us guess to a degree although over the years I’ve sneaked a look on occasion. I’ve found back end of December early Jan to be the best time for a single Winter treatment. Brood rearing in my area tales off with the end of the ivy and available pollen.

 

[Xander]

I bought an oxalic vaporiser on Amazon for £25 and vaped on 20th, 25th and 30th Dec.
Hi there sorry to butt in, Could you tell me what power source do you use for the vaporiser, as it seems to have a pair of cables indicating should be used with a battery. If so is there a way that could be used with a charger. Thank you

I have the old battery off my Landover which was failing on the vehicle but plenty of oomph left for jobs such as this.
Lead acid batteries can be bought quite cheaply from eBay and the like or put an ad in your local shop or on Facebook, I'm sure quite a few people will be changing batteries with the current weather conditions.

 

[richardh]

Hi Rob….A single vape at that time would have been sufficient and it’s all that’s recommended. You only do multiple for periods of brood rearing to catch mites in cells, hope that helps.

That's what I thought, until this year when I vaped multiple times around the shortest day.

Mite drop varied dramatically between colonies following the first treatment: substantial in some, little in others. Initially I attributed this to the relative efficacy of the range of miticides tested across my apiaries in autumn but then, for the avoidance of doubt, I vaped again after 5 days and the results were very different from the first treatment - high mite drop where previously there had been little. Why?

Having ruled out operational error (eg weak battery, pan heated too slowly), I speculate that the principal factor affecting the relative strike rates may have been variability in cluster cohesion and consequently also penetration by the microcrystalline OA fog. The more I witness profound between-hives variability in winter activity levels, the more I'm inclined to accept this hypothesis.

I'll be treating multiple times where apparently needed, going forward.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Invalid scooter batteries cost an arm and a leg. I think Amari on here uses a jump start battery, which is very portable and I think he says it does about 5 hives. Am sure he will correct if I am wrong.

Depends on your arm and leg I suppose https://www.amazon.co.uk/Power-Soni...refix=mobility+scooter+battery,aps,300&sr=8-7

 

[drex]

Yep, I see. I was thinking of the Lithium batteries for mobility scooters which are a ffew hundred. Sorry.

 

[Ian123]

That's what I thought, until this year when I vaped multiple times around the shortest day.

Mite drop varied dramatically between colonies following the first treatment: substantial in some, little in others. Initially I attributed this to the relative efficacy of the range of miticides tested across my apiaries in autumn but then, for the avoidance of doubt, I vaped again after 5 days and the results were very different from the first treatment - high mite drop where previously there had been little. Why?

Having ruled out operational error (eg weak battery, pan heated too slowly), I speculate that the principal factor affecting the relative strike rates may have been variability in cluster cohesion and consequently also penetration by the microcrystalline OA fog. The more I witness profound between-hives variability in winter activity levels, the more I'm inclined to accept this hypothesis.

I'll be treating multiple times where apparently needed, going forward.

That would make sense and even trickling over the years there’s been the odd hive that catches you out and not developing in the spring.
I suppose it’s then a time/effort/cost toss up for those very few that need it, after all Winter oxalic was never a cure all but a method of lowering mites for the up coming season and preventing more drastic measures and the use of chemicals in a honey flow. Plus imo totally negating the fad of shook swarm measures.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I bought one of these back in 2018/19 very popular for use in quad bikes around here (constant stop start but needs plenty of guts) not too big nor particularly heavy, it's still going strong and I've vaped seventeen colonies in one session with it and still had some power left in the tank, think it cost me about thirty quid
7" candle for comparison

 

[Norman Matthews]

Thanks very much for your advice.

 

[Bee’s Knees]

Hi,

I am in the same position. First hives last spring. I used Apivar in Autumn but would now like to vaporise with OA.

Would it be possible for someone to post a link to the actual Oxcylic acid I should be buying. I am confused if should be liquid, powder or crystals and what concentration.

Thanks