to insulate or not to insulate

[pargyle]

I just insulated my hives by adding one 1" pink foam sheet between the inner cover and the telescoping lid. I also strapped 4 pieces of foam around the box/boxes.

Will not win me any home improvement awards, but my yards are not visible to the neighbors, anyways.

You can see the pictures on my blog

Is that what we call 'sponge rubber' over here ... ie: if you dip it in water then squeeze it, it will take up water ? If so ... then it's probably not the best medium you could find for insulation ... insulation materials should either be impermeable to water or enclosed in something that is impermeable.

Ahh .. just managed to get into your blog ... it looks like your 'pink foam' is very similar to what we call Kingspan or Celotex,

 

[derekm]

I just insulated my hives by adding one 1" pink foam sheet between the inner cover and the telescoping lid. I also strapped 4 pieces of foam around the box/boxes.

Will not win me any home improvement awards, but my yards are not visible to the neighbors, anyways.

You can see the pictures on my blog

Pink styrofoam... It needs to be 3" thick and the roof sealed to sides (no top vent )to be really effective.

 

[merince]

No, it is not 'sponge rubber'. I have not seen any in 3" widths. The 1" is R10, which is pretty close to what they insulate houses around here (they use R13).

I still need to add the candy boards to the nucs before I add the final touches to the wrapping.

 

[beekeeping4you]

Absolutely no additional insulation

Here's why:

Distribution of temperature within beehive at an outer temperature of -4C

All our colonies are kept in Langstroth Polystyrene hives of a particularly high density (made in Germany) because:

1. They are extremely lightweight
2. They offer a cleaner, healthier environment to the colony
3. Cheaper than wooden equipment
4. Assembled in minutes

Should I mention that we keep 'exotic' Buckfast bees which do not require wrapping of any type?

Regards
Reiner

 

[Pennyfold Bees]

OMF, Insulation & Number of Supers

I'm new to beekeeping this year too, so just want to ask some clarification on this topic.

I read early in this thread that 2 or 3 people said they have an Open Mesh Floor (OMF) all year round. I have an OMF on both my hives, but was thinking that I'd need to fix something underneath so as to stop the draft coming in. I'd have thought that all the insulation doesn't do a great deal for the heat retention if the floor of the hive is completely open, but perhaps I'm wrong. I guess if there isn't too much wind and given heat rises, along with the bees creating their own heat source inside the hive that the insulation will keep that heat inside even with the open floor.

Related to this, I wondered about the amount of space inside the hive. I have two National hives, both with 14x12 brood chambers, I had taken off one super from each hive in early August, but thought I should leave plenty of stores for the bees. Therefore currently one hive has 1 super and the other hive has 2 supers. I think all supers are pretty full of honey although I'm not sure as I've been travelling overseas and was not able to inspect the hives in October. Just wondering if I've given the bees too much space inside the hive (do they have to generate more heat to keep it warm)? Should I remove a super off the hive with 2 supers or just leave them as they are. I know it is late in the season and wasn't planning to open them up again.

Thanks

 

[itma]

I'm new to beekeeping this year too, so just want to ask some clarification on this topic.

I read early in this thread that 2 or 3 people said they have an Open Mesh Floor (OMF) all year round. I have an OMF on both my hives, but was thinking that I'd need to fix something underneath so as to stop the draft coming in. I'd have thought that all the insulation doesn't do a great deal for the heat retention if the floor of the hive is completely open, but perhaps I'm wrong. I guess if there isn't too much wind and given heat rises, along with the bees creating their own heat source inside the hive that the insulation will keep that heat inside even with the open floor.

Open floor, sealed crown board (no holes) and insulated roof works nicely to retain rising heat in the 'diving bell'.
If your site is very exposed, you could put an empty (completely empty) super under the floor to provide a draught-skirt. I normally do something to reduce the turbulent airflow under the hives - it occurs to me that wind-mesh fencing offcuts round the hive stand would be ideal.

Related to this, I wondered about the amount of space inside the hive. I have two National hives, both with 14x12 brood chambers, I had taken off one super from each hive in early August, but thought I should leave plenty of stores for the bees. Therefore currently one hive has 1 super and the other hive has 2 supers. I think all supers are pretty full of honey although I'm not sure as I've been travelling overseas and was not able to inspect the hives in October. Just wondering if I've given the bees too much space inside the hive (do they have to generate more heat to keep it warm)? Should I remove a super off the hive with 2 supers or just leave them as they are. I know it is late in the season and wasn't planning to open them up again.

Thanks

Aaah.

You mustn't leave any QX in for the winter - it could separate Q from the cluster of bees.
Removing it means opening up.
So, what to do?

Depends really on how much stores are in the brood box as to whether any shallows should be left on the hives. And if leaving on, I'd say move under the brood box and aim to remove (empty) on the first really good day after mid-February.
I'd expect that your supers have a fair proportion of (granulating) Ivy honey in them, which is best used for bee-food. Whether or not its worth extracting would be your call - it might separate bee-food from drawn comb, but it might not if it has granulated. Gotta explore to discover what you have there!

Normally a 14x12 brood box holds plenty stores for a UK winter - there should be no need for extra storage space.
Your problem is if the BB doesn't have the stores, which are stashed away instead in the shallows. Hopefully. However, it isn't guaranteed that they have had a good autumn - the cupboard might even be bare, especially if the wasps have got in while you were away.

You need to discover what the state of play is when you open to remove the QXs.
And then act accordingly.

 

[thorn]

http://www.wickes.co.uk/celotex-cavity-wall-board-50mmx1200x450/invt/190546/

Easy. Cheap. Works.

Does it need coating/covering, or can it stand up to rain?

 

[itma]

Does it need coating/covering, or can it stand up to rain?

It is pretty waterproof.
But to prevent the edges getting tatty (not only by bee-nibbling), I choose to tape over the cut edges (and repair any damage to the foil covering) with aluminium adhesive tape (as sold for greenhouses, etc). My tape came from Lidl, 2x 15m rolls for £3 IIRC.

 

[Pennyfold Bees]

You mustn't leave any QX in for the winter - it could separate Q from the cluster of bees.
Removing it means opening up.

Thanks for your quick reponse, no problem regarding the QX as I did remove those on my 16 September inspection when I was back in the UK. I just didn't make any notes as I was fairly short on time.

Depends really on how much stores are in the brood box as to whether any shallows should be left on the hives.

Next question: Should I still open up on a warm(ish) day to check the stores? I have hefted the hives today, but don't really know what that weight relates to in terms of what is inside. It is currently 12.5 deg C and sunny here in Hampshire today. The bees are flying so could the be a good opportunity to take a look inside and see what stores they actually have?

 

[pargyle]

It is pretty waterproof.
But to prevent the edges getting tatty (not only by bee-nibbling), I choose to tape over the cut edges (and repair any damage to the foil covering) with aluminium adhesive tape (as sold for greenhouses, etc). My tape came from Lidl, 2x 15m rolls for £3 IIRC.

I tried the 'Duct tape' from Lidl but it peeled with the damp ... I've replaced it with this aluminium foil tape from Wickes which at under a fiver for 45m is a comparable price and it seems to be holding up better ...

http://www.wickes.co.uk/invt/161265

 

[itma]

I tried the 'Duct tape' from Lidl but it peeled with the damp ... I've replaced it with this aluminium foil tape from Wickes which at under a fiver for 45m is a comparable price and it seems to be holding up better ... ]

Yes, "duct tape" is never claimed to be waterproof.

However the 3M aluminium tape from Lidl that I have used, and mentioned above, most definitely is.

Good to know Wickes are price-competitive!

 

[Polyanwood]

Insulation is something beekeepers argue about. There is one school of thought that say we should wrap them in Kingspan sealing in the heat. There are others, often older and more experienced beekeepers, like Roger Patterson, who talk of the need for matchsticks under the crownboard and the importance of ventilation.

My own view is that the bees seem to do best in polystyrene over winter. I also notice that bees with a damp or mouldy crownboard often die, so I urge beginners not to wrap up their hives so much that the air can hardly circulate.

.

 

[pargyle]

Insulation is something beekeepers argue about. There is one school of thought that say we should wrap them in Kingspan sealing in the heat. There are others, often older and more experienced beekeepers, like Roger Patterson, who talk of the need for matchsticks under the crownboard and the importance of ventilation.

My own view is that the bees seem to do best in polystyrene over winter. I also notice that bees with a damp or mouldy crownboard often die, so I urge beginners not to wrap up their hives so much that the air can hardly circulate.

.

And I would urge beginners to keep an open mind, think about the reality of RP's matchsticks under the crown board and the consequential loss of heat that a colony will face as the cold and continually changing air, (advocated by these older and more experienced, but stuck in the dark ages, beekeepers), percolates up through the hive taking the precious heat generated by the colony straight out of the top of the hive.

Read some of the science behind well insulated hives and don't be too quick to accept that 50 years of beekeeping always brings the right answers.

Do not accept that 'cold never killed bees' ... it may not have killed them but it sure as hell makes their life more difficult. If many commercial beekeepers have moved to poly hives they have either recognised the value of a warmer environment, protected to an extent from the fluctuations of the external atmosphere or they have found, by accident, that colonies in warmer hives have fared better than in uninsulated wood. That should tell you something ... it's only a short step to more insulation.

Insulation on hives is not new ... the late Bill Bielby ... a lifetime beekeeper and one of the all time great innovativors in beekeeping said in his book 'Home Honey Production' published in 1977... Page 45 for those who have missed it .. 'For most economical wintering hives should be highly insulated and completely [Bill's emphasis not mine] draughtproof'.

Like I said ... keep an open mind ...

 

[drstitson]

"There are others, often older and more experienced beekeepers, like Roger Patterson, who talk of the need for matchsticks under the crownboard and the importance of ventilation."

one could argue that RPs bees survive DESPITE his misguided/outdated efforts. Presumably his husbandry otherwise is very good meaning healthy strong colonies of good stock are overwintered in appropriate sized boxes with adequate stores.

if you have low winter losses and look around you only to see variably worse losses in others who use various wintering approaches of course you will stick with what you know, even if it is not the optimal approach.

what would be needed is a proper blinded randomised controlled trial where half his colonies got insulation and half didn't AND he didn't know which (insulation added/matchsticks removed after he'd finished last autumn jobs and situation reversed before he first looked in spring).

aside from survival rate, spring build up or winter store usage would be useful outcome measures.

 

[derekm]

"There are others, often older and more experienced beekeepers, like Roger Patterson, who talk of the need for matchsticks under the crownboard and the importance of ventilation."

one could argue that RPs bees survive DESPITE his misguided/outdated efforts. Presumably his husbandry otherwise is very good meaning healthy strong colonies of good stock are overwintered in appropriate sized boxes with adequate stores.

if you have low winter losses and look around you only to see variably worse losses in others who use various wintering approaches of course you will stick with what you know, even if it is not the optimal approach.

what would be needed is a proper blinded randomised controlled trial where half his colonies got insulation and half didn't AND he didn't know which (insulation added/matchsticks removed after he'd finished last autumn jobs and situation reversed before he first looked in spring).

aside from survival rate, spring build up or winter store usage would be useful outcome measures.

The experimental work has already been done by Villumstad in the 1970's
Villumstad, E. (1974). Importance of hive insulation for wintering, development and honey yield in Norway. Apiacta 9, 116-118
s

http://www.apimondiafoundation.org/...&action=download_file&file_id=460&categ_id=80

 

[itma]

... There are others, often older and more experienced beekeepers, like Roger Patterson, who talk of the need for matchsticks under the crownboard and the importance of ventilation.

Unfortunately, many of the older generation have simply continued with the practices they used to need when using solid floors with their badly insulated hives.
Trying something different is a necessary part of improvement.

Really, open floors and decent insulation is a much better way to go.

 

[Pete D]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/bee-hive-..._Pet_Supplies_Bee_Keeping&hash=item2a33a49483


could buy myself 25 of these for my hives...................

 

[Tim.S]

'Protects the bees from invasive electromagnetic waves'

I think I will make my bees some little hats from old pie dishes...........
Or just take their mobile phones away?

 

[pargyle]

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/bee-hive-..._Pet_Supplies_Bee_Keeping&hash=item2a33a49483


could buy myself 25 of these for my hives...................

Well, I think £5 worth of Kingspan from Wickes and a bit of aluminium tape and a few minutes making a 'DerekM bonnet' would do the same job at a fraction of the cost ...

as for electromnagnetic influences - well, I have concerns about the effects of microwaves lurking in the ether but even I am not sufficiently paranoid to think they have a marked effect on our bees ... unless, of course, your hive is mounted in the middle of a mobile phone mast tower !!

If the bees didn't like microwaves they would move ....

 

[drstitson]

"The experimental work has already been done by Villumstad"

i konw! i wasn't implying that the work needed doing de novo simply that stick in the muds would need to be shown that even their colonies could POTENTIALLY benefit.