To do an A/S or not?

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ksjs

House Bee
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Location
North Wales
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Last week I introduced a sealed QC to a hive, this hive was showing signs of swarming (unsealed QCs). The reason I introduced the QC from another hive is that I liked the parent queen. This was part of an artificial swarm effort (on the hive I introduced the QC to) that clearly hasn't worked.

My plan was that I would cull any emergency queen cells that were started, this was to be done some time between Mon and Wed this week. Yesterday however they swarmed. Strangely they went back in?

I imagine that whatever the reason for them not swarming they will try do so again unless it was a heavily accompanied mating flight and she mated within a few metres of the hive.

If they hadn't tried to swarm I'd still be aiming to inspect with a view to killing emergency queen cells but now I think I'll just prompt them to swarm and I have this notion that if they do so in this way they are more likely to fly off rather than congregate.

So I guess my options are:

1. do nothing and hope I can catch the swarm or hope they won't try to swarm again

2. cull all but 1 or 2 emergency cells and do an (one that actually works this time) artificial swarm (but risk annoying them and prompting a 'less ordered' swarm)

Any help much appreciated.

Thanks.
 
Last week

Please elucidate. A week is a long time in relation to queen development.

this was to be done some time between Mon and Wed this week

Can I assume the queen cell was not going to emerge by when? Thursday?

The initial artificial swarm is to abate the swarming instinct of the old queen part, not the parent colony. That comes as the later part (The artificial swarming manipulations are not completed for a week). If you did not remove the other queen cells by the correct date, the parent colony is much more likely to produce a cast swarm. This is per the Padgen A/S procedure which all new beeks should be following - tried, tested and works.

Doing nothing and hoping is not exactly good beekeeping, or even beekeeping at all?

Did you move the parent colony to the other side of the A/S'ed queen colony after one week? I am thinking not.

I suggest you check there is a queen in the colony and remove the other cells. Be sure you do this before the colony casts, or make very certain you have a queen cell available should you make a further - err - complication.
 
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Last week

Please elucidate. A week is a long time in relation to queen development.

this was to be done some time between Mon and Wed this week

Can I assume the queen cell was not going to emerge by when? Thursday?

The initial artificial swarm is to abate the swarming instinct of the old queen part, not the parent colony. That comes as the later part (The artificial swarming manipulations are not completed for a week). If you did not remove the other queen cells by the correct date, the parent colony is much more likely to produce a cast swarm. This is per the Padgen A/S procedure which all new beeks should be following - tried, tested and works.

Doing nothing and hoping is not exactly good beekeeping, or even beekeeping at all?

Did you move the parent colony to the other side of the A/S'ed queen colony after one week? I am thinking not.

I suggest you check there is a queen in the colony and remove the other cells. Be sure you do this before the colony casts, or make very certain you have a queen cell available should you make a further - err - complication.

So the QC I introduced was an unsealed cell on the 5th June. I can't say how many days old but I'll estimate between 4 and 6 based on diagrams of QC development I've seen. Therefore earliest she would have hatched is on the 15th and latest would have been the 17th, assuming of course my estimation is correct.

I introduced the QC last Wed, the 12th.

I culled all QC (on the 12th) of any type I could see in the recipient hive. They would have then started to form emergency QC (on the 12th or 13th latest) which at the earliest would get sealed today but more likely tomorrow. It was these emergency QC that I wanted to cull between Mon and Wed this week.

My a/s method was botched and while I have the excuse that I was following instructions, I know enough to recognise that the described method didn't fulfil some basic requirements for a successful A/S. The parent colony was not moved.

Surely if I kill all QC and they're in a mood to swarm and they then swarm I have no QC (I can produce one using other colonies' brood if necessary)? Is it not better to do an A/S, one that works?
 
Surely if I kill all QC and they're in a mood to swarm and they then swarm I have no QC

They would not. Bees are not that stupid to leave the parent colony with no viable queen or developing cell.

Your timings are all awry. Queen hatched on about the 4th June if she were to emerge on the 17th.

was an unsealed cell on the 5th June... I'll estimate between 4 and 6 If 6 days old it would have emerged on or around the 15th, not the 17th.

I think a (large) plain sheet of paper with a time line drawn on it would be a good starting exercise for you.

They would have then started to form emergency QC (on the 12th or 13th latest) which at the earliest would get sealed today

Just not true. They could have been sealed on the 16th. (time line again?)

Today is the 19th.
 
Surely if I kill all QC and they're in a mood to swarm and they then swarm I have no QC

They would not. Bees are not that stupid to leave the parent colony with no viable queen or developing cell.

I will go for the culling approach and see where we get to.

Your timings are all awry. Queen hatched on about the 4th June if she were to emerge on the 17th.

I meant emerge not 'hatch' - important difference I know. 15th - 17th stands as the date she emerged.

was an unsealed cell on the 5th June... I'll estimate between 4 and 6 If 6 days old it would have emerged on or around the 15th, not the 17th.
But if it was 4 then the 17th is possible.

I think a (large) plain sheet of paper with a time line drawn on it would be a good starting exercise for you.
My terminology may be wrong but the critical dates seem right.

They would have then started to form emergency QC (on the 12th or 13th latest) which at the earliest would get sealed today

Just not true. They could have been sealed on the 16th. (time line again?)

Today is the 19th.
I understand the cell is sealed on the 8th day. If they started making emergency cells on the 12th i.e. day I removed their queen that makes the earliest possible day for sealing today, the 19th. If they sealed on the 16th this would have been 4 days after the 12th. That's not possible?
 
Surely if I kill all QC and they're in a mood to swarm and they then swarm I have no QC

They would not. Bees are not that stupid to leave the parent colony with no viable queen or developing cell.

On reflection this doesn't actually help as I surely only delay the inevitable? If they want to swarm they will so why not take action now rather than later?
 
That's not possible?

Oh yes it is. You are not necessarily starting with eggs at day zero. Read up on how old a larva may be for the bees to make it into a queen. My time was very conservative, at that. It could have been earlier.

Apologies re the emergence dates - I clearly didn't read your post accurately enough or forgot while keying in.

critical dates seem right.

Not at all. The point I was thinking of was that the 17th was far too late to be culling queen cells if she could had emerged a couple days earlier. Dates are always only approximate and you just cannot rely on best scenario - you must always work on the worst scenario case. Hours can make a large difference as to whether the new queen is ready to fly with a cast. You may have been lucky that she was not developed enough for her to leave at that time and the swarming workers returned.

@ Day 4, the larva could still be floating around in a pool of royal jelly, I would think

The parent colony was not moved (from post #3)

Not moving the parent colony is a big mistake re risking casts. It was designed as part of the Padgen system specifically for that purpose. Some, of course, would say otherwise, but they would not have thought it through properly.

You might note that not so many others have deigned to reply.

Perhaps they will chip in when everything is clearer to understand - or there may be the odd one that comes on, whinging as usual.
 
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Re Your post #6

I did not even bother to consider anything more than what you keyed in. I simply pointed out that what you posted was not sensible.
 
1. do nothing and hope I can catch the swarm or hope they won't try to swarm again.

That is the Beatles Way: let the bee be


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0714IbwC3HA[/ame]
 
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Re Your post #6

I did not even bother to consider anything more than what you keyed in. I simply pointed out that what you posted was not sensible.
Lots of non-bee things to do today so have to sign off for now - will have a look at your posts and try to make sense of what I did / didn't do and reply later today / tomorrow.

I've just done an inspection of the relevant hive i.e. finished this minutes ago. I think I am even more confused than I was. Points to note:

- quite a lot of sealed brood, consistent with having a laying queen up to June 12th
- quite a lot of unsealed brood, I'd guess around the 6-8 day mark, again consistent with there being a laying queen until the 12th
- there was one obvious queen cell, I'd say emergency rather than deliberate but when I opened it, the larva was quite developed, maybe around 13-15 days. That doesn't seem possible, unless of course I didn't spot it on the 12th?
- I saw no other queen cells of any type, I find this strange - why wouldn't they have made lots of emergency queen cells?
- there were quite a few play cups but with no contents
- there was a hatched QC, this was the QC I introduced
- I didn't see the recently emerged queen
- there were no eggs present
- the bees seemed quite happy and didn't appear 'swarmy'

I now wonder things like:

- did they swarm yesterday only for the queen not to be able to fly so they dumped her, returned to the hive and I've now just killed their only viable QC?
- did they just tear everything down because they thought the newly emerged virgin queen was so brilliant?
- did the swarm actually return to the hive yesterday (I'm certain it did i.e. they started to cluster near the hive then there was fanning at the hive and the chaos of flying bees stopped and today there seemed to be a full compliment in there)?
- what's the next step? If all is good i.e. the virgin emerged and got mated or is yet to be mated then there's little point in inspecting again for a while now I know (or rather believe) there are no unwanted queen cells. 7 days seems reasonable to give them time to settle and her to hopefully start laying.

Just to be clear they definitely haven't had a queen for the period between the 12th and the new queen emerging. The previous queen is in a nuc box and there were upright eggs in there with her earlier today.

By the way I do appreciate your posts and help.
 
- quite a lot of sealed brood, consistent with having a laying queen up to June 12th

Oh dear. NO! Brood is sealed until 21 days after the egg is laid! You may be correct, but not for the reason given.

- quite a lot of unsealed brood, I'd guess around the 6-8 day mark,

That would be a correct assumption.

7 days seems reasonable to give them time to settle and her to hopefully start laying.


You are both unreasonable and exceedingly hopeful. That might depend on when she emerged, and particularly the weather. Possible but not probable is my reply, given all the information, lacking one more important timing (and not knowing whether they actually swarmed properly or not) and also experiencing unseasonal June weather.
 

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