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Time table for an early April start

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mikethebee 

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Time table for an early April start using imported queen
1. Start 2nd week April 8th day, starting from scratch with a swarm of package bees with laying imported Queen place swarm into hive with feed, on foundation only, (Speed it up add clean drawn comb.)
In 55 days! End of May you should have a colony big enough for a super.

Let?s imagine a queen fills 1 frame (both sides) with eggs every 2 days that?s 22 days to fill 11 frame BS National this represents about 65,000 brood eggs.
A further 35 days for the bees to hatch and become foraging bees
That?s 100,000 bees established in a colony. That?s 55 days = 2 months

Time table for an early April start using UK raised queen
2. start with a UK raised queen hatched in June weather good, set up a nucleus 5 frames made up from any breeding colony placed in hive,
she will start to lay eggs in 3 days, it will still takes the same 55 days to establish the colony that?s end of July before you put on a super on, not much chance of a honey crop "for most of the uk "!

facts
3. An imported queen should start laying within 3 days of being accepted.
4. A raised UK queen in a nucleus will take 20 days on average for a queen to start laying.
5 it takes 35 days for worker bees to forage.
6. IF and I say, IF the weather is favourable in MAY/June it might be possible to raise a mated queen earlier but why take the chance.
Now shoot me down.
All the best mike
 

Wendy122 

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One problem there would not be enough bees in the hive to keep warm 11 frames of brood unless the hive was already full of bees.

It would need to be a big swarm. A bit more than 3,5 pounds.

But theoretically if you could ?

I do agree method A is the best of the 2 with the imported queen

W
 

Mission 

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If they are housed on exising drawn comb then I agree she could be laying in three days. If they are housed on new foundation then it could take 14 days until she starts laying.

The great thing with packaged bees is that if you treat them like a swarm and put them on new foundation. Any comb derived spores of desease are not present. Also you can hit them hard with a varroa treatment as they won't have brood.
 

Crg 

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If they are housed on exising drawn comb then I agree she could be laying in three days. If they are housed on new foundation then it could take 14 days until she starts laying.
I agree, saying 3 days is a little misleading Mike, you generally wouldn't be giving the packaged bees drawn out comb.

The great thing with packaged bees is that if you treat them like a swarm and put them on new foundation. Any comb derived spores of desease are not present. Also you can hit them hard with a varroa treatment as they won't have brood.
Another great thing about packages is you can use them in any type of hive :)

The bad thing about packages is, unlike many other countries, they seem to be hard to find in the UK :(
 

Hombre 

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I agree, saying 3 days is a little misleading Mike, you generally wouldn't be giving the packaged bees drawn out comb.
It's fairly normal to cite a best case, as in miles per gallon for a motor car. You couldn't really expect anything more.
The bad thing about packages is, unlike many other countries, they seem to be hard to find in the UK
Mike is planning on changing that of course.
 

Crg 

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It's fairly normal to cite a best case, as in miles per gallon for a motor car. You couldn't really expect anything more.
Okay then the best case for a UK queen would be the same, because you could used a UK queen raised at the end of the year before.

Then of course you could always improve on that best case by not just giving them drawn out comb, but comb with brood already in there. How far do you think it's reasonable to take this "best case" thing?

The fact is, you normally would, and should (as Mission pointed out it's a chance to start out clean), start with fresh foundation.
 

Poly Hive 

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Just to make some thinkin caps go on here.

Once upon a time I had a little Observation hive on a window which comprised one frame of brood and on super frame, National size.

they were getting a little strong so I took them outside, and swapped out the frame of brood for a frame of foundation. Time roughly 4 pm. Put them back on their stance and left.

Next day at 10am what progress had been made?

PH
 

Bcrazy 

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Hi PH,

My thinking cap fell off ages ago but here goes anyway.

I would surmise no progress would have been made in drawing out comb on fresh foundation.

Reason;
Change over time of frames was in the evening, therefor all flying would be finished, depending the the light outside and temp.

Depending how much honey was stored in the super frame the bees might begin to gorge themselves with honey for 24 hrs and hang in festoons to produce particles of wax, then start to build comb.

The bees need to be stimulated to build comb and that is why in my opinion we should feed a syrup solution to help them begin the process of building comb.

Regards;
 

ian 

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Hi Poly


I will have a stab.

Wax started and drawn at the top and centre of your new frame with a tennis ball size patch of eggs, with a total area of about 25%+ of your frame started to be worked.


Regards Ian
 

ian 

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Hi

For the record establishing packages is not fool proof, it is also recommended that they are given drawn comb when possible, just to get them going.

Park Beekeeping have had them for a number of years.


http://www.parkbeekeeping.com/index.php?s=1

And there used to be a chap that would truck up a lorry full into Calais and you could collect.



Regards Ian
 

mikethebee 

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Time table for an early April start using imported queen.
In 55 days! End of May you should have a colony big enough for a super.

Time table for an early June start using UK raised queen
she will start to lay eggs in 3 days, it will still takes the same 55 days to establish the colony that?s end of July before you put on a super on, not much chance of a honey crop "for most of the UK"!

wendy122 The 3.1/2 pound of bees is more than enough for a 5 frame nest inside the biggest monster box you can find it will work as long as you know what your doing?

From the moment you place bees into a nuc / hive with a queen, (No matter what) the bees instinct is survival, and to build comb ?you obviously add syrup to help?
This includes bees from several different hives they are so disorientated they would except almost any queen available. Live or die

I Have collected a small swarm ?cast? on a branch placed it under a sheds overhanging roof. the bees survived into a very big natural colony with out feeding by the end of the year.
Beekeeping is all about how to manage your bees,
all the best mike
 

Norton 

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Let’s imagine a queen fills 1 frame (both sides) with eggs every 2 days that’s 22 days to fill 11 frame BS National this represents about 65,000 brood eggs.
A further 35 days for the bees to hatch and become foraging bees
That’s 100,000 bees established in a colony. That’s 55 days = 2 months
My opinion is, if you don't want it - then stop reading NOW! - is that you need to rethink the maths here. 22 days to lay 65,000 eggs is about 3,000/day: studies have shown that the actual amount is about half that: i.e. 1,500/day. I have never seen a colony that I have estimated as having 100,000 bees in it. 65,000 is about the strongest I have seen: 42 days (lifespan during foraging) X1,500=63,000 that is if they haven't swarmed before they climax. Others may disagree with these figures, but I believe that they are realistic.
Have a good evening!
Norton.
:cheers2:
 

mikethebee 

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Hi NORTON about time you came and helped me with me sums, My post is a rough guide,
I read somewhere a good queens lay 6 eggs a minute, at that rate =7,200 eggs a day? but up to 2000 is a good average rate per day of laying and represents 84,000 bees during 6/8 weeks in the UK.
Today?s super queen?s bees are reckoned to lay 3,000 per day =a lot of bees?

all the best mike
 

mikethebee 

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Hi NORTON about time you came and helped me with me sums, My post is a rough guide,
I read somewhere a good queens lay 6 eggs a minute, at that rate =7,200 eggs a day? but up to 2000 is a good average rate per day of laying and represents 84,000 bees during 6/8 weeks in the UK.
Today?s super queen?s bees are reckoned to lay 3,000 per day =a lot of bees?

all the best mike
 

Norton 

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Hello,
Mike I hate to not agree with you - but I have to on this one.
Egg laying rates have been studied by many scientists - mostly at universities which have ample time and resources to do this sort of research. Actually it is not that difficult in today's digital age. All you need is a good digital camera, a computer and someone to count the brood in the photos.
Hive populations are also quite easy to calculate: weigh 100 bees from a colony: weigh the colony with the bees and then without the bees and you can accurately caculate the number of individual bees in a colony.
The results are almost always the same: 1,500 eggs/day* on average and maximum hive populations of around 65,000 bees.
(* Some queens may lay up to 1,800/day for very short periods, but then slack off to less than 1,500, so it evens out.)
When brood and hive populations are greater than the above then this is probably due to the colony having two queens. Up to 20% of colonies have two queens and I once found a colony with three queens all laying happily away.
Interestingly when hive populations go above the 65,000 point colony cohesion seems to break down and these colonies do not perform as expected even though they have a superior workforce.
I hope you find this interesting.
Best regards
Norton.
:cheers2:
 
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OXFORDBEE 

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Norton,

An interesting post... have you got any references (or links to references) for further info?
 

Norton 

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Hello,
I cannot supply specific links or references. There is an extensive library at home here with hundreds of books, periodicals and separata It is just things I have learnt from reading all this material in English, Greek, French and German over the past 30+ years as well being a commercial beekeeper. You will just have to take my word for it.
For example in the March issue of the ABJ on page 215 is a mention that the maximum number of emerging bees a day that can be expected is 1,500.
Best regards
Norton.
 

admin 

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So not only are you one of the best queen breeders in the world you also speak at least 4 languages !!!:svengo:
 

mikethebee 

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Hi Norton I don?t disagree wid you mate.
Did not ABJ do something on these lines some time ago?
Have a look at B Weaver/Eva Crain? /Wedmore page 14?

I am not going to count um it?s just a rough example of how fast a 3.1/2 pound package of bees will grow.
all the best mike
 

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