Timber sizes for National Hive

[tomtomhitter]

Hi all,

I am interested in making my own hive or two using the Dave Cushman plans.
Timber will be pine due to budget.

Can the DIYers here advise on a couple of things:
1: Are you using planed or rough cut timber for your brood/super walls?
2: If using planed timber, are you working with planed dimensions, or original rough cut dimentions?
3: For both planed and rough cut timber, what tolerances are you adhering to?

It seems to be difficult to source adequately sized planed pine.
Largest I have found locally is 218 - 220mm x 18/19mm.
(The original (unplaned) dimenions were around 225mm x 21mm - which is a little closer to what I need, but irrelevant?)

Is planed pine of a >225mm width usually readily available?

For other projects I would probably just use the closest I could find, but with the importance of bee space and critical dimensions inside the hive etc, I am left a little worried and confused.

I'm also considering the <1mm - 2mm discrepancies across the entire hive, due to conversion between imperial and metric. (Based on imperial plans on the Cushman website).
When building, I will stick to the Cushman plans, which means it will, at least, be consistent.

Any help or comments greatly appreciated!

Thanks
Tom

 

[yeogi75]

have you looked at scaffolding planks' have used pallet wood find a pallet company they have some red wood pallets make sure only heat treated not treated pallets

 

[Millet]

have you looked at scaffolding planks' have used pallet wood find a pallet company they have some red wood pallets make sure only heat treated not treated pallets

Scaffold boards are 38mm thick and i could imagine them being a tad heavy for making bee keeping equipment

 

[deemann1]

If you are using planned then you have to work to your planned dimensions and the same for rough.
Keep to the internal dimensions and you can't go wrong...
If you are not use to woodworking then you should try building the hybrid national no joint work ..
As for timber not being wide enough can you sourse a timber mill ??
Or you could glue screw or dowl your timber to reach your required dimensions

 

[charlievictorbravo]

You cannot go far wrong by measuring the dimensions of a brood frame and making sure that it fits inside the box you will build and that there will be beespace above (preferably, to create top beespace - most store-bought boxes are bottom beespace), beside the two sides of the frame and under the lugs when it's sitting on the frame runner. The only place where there isn't a beespace is at the end of the lug - I design for a 1 -2 mmm gap here.

If you want to be really avant garde, you could make your hive out of 30mm recticel or similar, and make a telescopic roof out of the same material (double thickness in the top) so that you have, in effect, a hive wall thickness of 60mm of high insulating material. One advantage of PIR insulation material is that it's light for handling but this means it has to be strapped down. There're rumours that DerekM is writing a book about using PIR to make hives but I don't know how long you might have to wait for it to appear. Pm him - he might be able to offer some help with the construction details. I made one hive last year with this material and the bees seem ok with it.

CVB

 

[alfazer]

I've found timber sold as "whitewood shelving" (white deal) in the past that is around 3/4" thick and up to 11.5" wide.
Also a sheet material called "lamboard" which is strips of redwood pine glued edged to edge and cut to make a 8x4' sheet. Very handy assuming you have a tablesaw or even a handheld circular saw. It's also great for all kinds of solid pine furniture, cabinets, etc.

 

[Newbeeneil]

I use cedar direct from a local saw mill. It is rough sawn to any dimensions I request. It comes in 12' lengths which is ideal for 2 boxes.

Originally I would use it rough which would result in a thickness of 18-20mm but I have since found a local carpentry shop which will run the wood, which I air dry over a few months, through its thicknesser and saw to give me the right sizes. This costs me a jar of honey or so.

If you find the right sort of saw mill you can pick up cedar at a very reasonable price. Mine charges me £15cu/ft +vat which works out at just over £10 for a 12' length of 9" cedar board.

Good luck with your hunt.

 

[drex]

The Roger Patterson plans for nucleus hives on Dave Cushmans site work well. He gives the important internal dimensions, and I work out the rest from the thickness of the timber I am using ( always reclaimed). From memory I think the internal width of a brood box is 415 mm, and that is the only other figure you need to know..
Just made 3 nucs and one bait hive from OSB - from a nearby skip, ( the bees will not be in any of them that long), and they will only be used in summer.

 

[oliver90owner]

Timber will be pine due to budget.

Have you considered the ‘whole life’ cost? Likely actually cheaper if made in cedar.

Buy cheap, buy twice is possibly fairly close to the truth.

 

[Finman]

Timber will be pine due to budget.

Have you considered the ‘whole life’ cost? Likely actually cheaper if made in cedar.

Buy cheap, buy twice is possibly fairly close to the truth.

Pine will last at least one man's life. It needs painting.

I have self made 52 years old pine boxes and nothing wrong in them. But if you seel the surface so that they cannot release moisture from wood, they will rotten.

 

[Newbeeneil]

I agree with drex that the Roger Paterson nuc boxes work a treat and I have about 7 made to those dimensions but I wanted to be able to get 2 under a standard roof so have since made 6 with an internal dimension of 200mm and timber thickness of 15mm which still allows for 5 frames.
I have a slot in the front and back of the side wall that I use to clamp the boxes together when I use under a standard roof.


I agree about the use of cedar as well but it's not always easy to get it within budget... and us beers are renowned for our tight budgets

 

[Finman]

, a hive wall thickness of 60mm of high insulating material.

CVB

That thickness makes no sense either in my country or either in British climate.

20 mm poly hives are very good. I have kept such 30 years. Modern 40 mm poly wall is of course better, and they have same box dimensions.

 

[nantmoel]

There's a sawmill in Usk, I have used them and they have English Cedar, give them a ring with your needs and they will price it for you: http://www.cilfiegansawmill.com

 

[tomtomhitter]

Thanks for all the help, everyone.

As they're my first hives for my firts colonies, I think Ive decided to use 18mm ply. The only disadvantages I can see are weight and lifespan.

I figure that if I weatherproof them to the best of my ability, and locate them in a relatively protected location, they should give me at least a couple of years service. Plus, with the left over ply I can build spare broods for when needed in the future. However, I will probably buy sections such as the excluder and mesh floor.

I work with wood a lot in my job as an imstrument maker, but have never had to work to tolerances to keep something alive! So I just wanted to be certain about a few things before building. Working to the internal dimensions seems to be the key point here!!

Again, thank you. I'm sure I'll be chatting to you all in other parts of the forum during this rapidly approaching season!

Tom

 

[Olivia9801]

To make the side panels to the widths required for brood boxes in particular, it’s important to make them by not doing so from one piece. What I mean is that if you use or are aiming for a piece that is 225mm wise, then there is no doubt that with the exposure to the elements, even with water sealants, the timbers are likely to warp/bow.

To obtain panels in this size and even bigger, you joint pieces that are narrower than what you require. I use a biscuit jointer and waterproof/external wood glue. There are other options but it depends on what power tools you have access to. These include gluing in a ply tongue and groove the opposing timber, moulding your timbers in a tongue and groove pattern or even just gluing the two wooden faces -butt jointing, but this is the weakest option. Whichever joint option you use, it’s importan to alternate the grain to again prevent the panel from “cupping.”

You will need a couple of sash clamps but there are some good cheap versions like biscuit jointers.

The timbers available at your local timber/building suppliers is 18mm PAR-(planed all round) and is what I use. I can make a super for £6.00 with this timber. I use a water sealant and paint them (on the outside only) and they are showing no signs of rot.

The 0lywood option I feel has only one option, and that is that it won’t require jointwork otherwise it’s heavy and the degree of end grain exposure is a big weakness....even with sealant.

Hope this helps?

Regards

 

[tomtomhitter]

Yes, that is great info and all makes sense.

My boss did suggest the same method for achieving the desired width, but I think with the season rapidly approaching and my available time for construction/access to my boss' workshop, the ply option will have to suffice for now. Maybe in the future I can spend some more time building a decent set of hives from pine or cedar.

Thanks!

 

[nantmoel]

Get yourself down to the Spring Convention in Builth Wells this Saturday and grab yourself a Poly Hive, from one of the many suppliers that will be there.

 

[Helen]

All my hives are made out of 18mm exterior (not marine) ply. Lots of sealer on the exposed edges, and so far, they are fine. Nice thing about sheet material is that you can go get most of it cut to size by the builders merchant/DIY shop on their big, accurate saw. Then you just need to build it.

 

[ricgoodman]

Really interesting thread as I've been trying to figure out both the techniques and economics of building national brood boxes and supers. The fact that one can buy flat packed cedar boxes cheaper than timber from retail DIY stores means that at best my time is worth zero. Possibly the big differential comes from not being able to buy 8 7/8 or 5 7/8 by 3/4 boards as standard - not only do the metric standards not conform the National standard, but there does not seem to any way to do this without jointing two boards together and with substantial waste. So unless the average hobby beek has a subsidised / reclaimed source of timber, or wants to go off-piste in producing their own creations, it does not seem to make any economic sense to create one's own boxes. I will continue to make roofs, ekes, crown boards, floors and stands from salvaged scrap, but think that buying the more vertical infrastructure from an on-line provider (at around gbp18 and 16 respectively) makes more sense. Happy to hear counter arguments...would love to get the cost down!

 

[Newbeeneil]

I agree with you ricgoodman, I don't think you can justify financially making brood boxes or supers from scratch but it's good fun to make the odd one or two occasionally. I get very cheap cedar (see post #7) but by the time I've seasoned the timber, run it through my thicknesses and made the box I can certainly buy 2nds cheaper.
I do however knock up the odd few boxes if I need some rapidly and haven't any in stock. It takes me about an hour provided I have the seasoned planks in stock.
Most of my timber is used for floors and roofs.