Timber for hives

[Sayle]

My guesstimate: moisture expelled and replaced by paraffin or wax would also fill air voids in the wood fibre. If so, thermal insulation would be reduced as heat would pass through the wax faster than through air.

True, but dipping doesn't penetrate the entire piece of timber. Either way, it's unlikely to have any substantial difference.

 

[Antipodes]

True, but dipping doesn't penetrate the entire piece of timber. Either way, it's unlikely to have any substantial difference.

Oh yes, I agree and was thinking only marginal, but was interested which way it changed it. "They" reckon it does go right through.... if you do 150/160 c for 10 minutes. They say a standard Langstroth takes in only about 30g of wax, so yes, like you say, not much wax.

My guesstimate: moisture expelled and replaced by paraffin or wax would also fill air voids in the wood fibre. If so, thermal insulation would be reduced as heat would pass through the wax faster than through air.

I remember Finman commenting in a post that dipping makes the box colder because of the air voids being replaced with wax...or words to that effect. I've noticed it does shrink the wood across the grain. Perhaps in a "live hive" situation, because the wood doesn't get saturated with moisture with the wax in it, it might help?

 

[madasafish]

Wa

Perhaps in a "live hive" situation, because the wood doesn't get saturated with moisture with the wax in it, it might help?

When you think that wood absorbs moisture which is then heated by the bees, expands, and at the surface is evaporated by any wind - the potential for heat losses by evaporation are huge - see latent heat of water 2477KJ/kg at 10C. If 10 gms are evaporated that is a heat loss of 24.77KJ.

So a wet hive on a windy day can easily lose a lot of heat quite quickly.

(which is why I use use overhanging and enveloping roofs to reduce water on hive walls.)

But these roofs are a bit of a pia to handle so impractical in volume.
Ideal for overwintering mini nucs though. Single Kieler shown. successfully overwintered.

 

[Sayle]

Oh yes, I agree and was thinking only marginal, but was interested which way it changed it. "They" reckon it does go right through.... if you do 150/160 c for 10 minutes. They say a standard Langstroth takes in only about 30g of wax, so yes, like you say, not much wax.

Really, the wax goes right through the wood? If so that's properly fascinating. Definitely a much different process to just dipping it in wax to give it a protective cover.

 

[Boston Bees]

https://bee-equipment.co.uk/product...MI5YeIjZ647wIVDLbtCh15fAX2EAQYASABEgJXLvD_BwE...............They’ve been around in the US for years. Bees are after a cavity it need be no more complicated than that.

Yes, but .. £23 for a piece of shaped cardboard that will fall apart in a stiff rainshower .....

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

and they can't even spell fibre correctly

 

[Ian123]

Yes, but .. £23 for a piece of shaped cardboard that will fall apart in a stiff rainshower .....

I wasn’t recommending themThey come coated in that coffee cup lining material, or at least the 1s I saw. So should last the season. I think some of these disposable types came about for the monitoring of ahb progress. They obviously didn’t make them 100mm thick and thermally efficient for some reason

 

[Repwoc]

I have made a couple of hives from oak. They looked beautiful - but were heavy as Hell. I have tried plywood but it was very difficult to stop it delaminating after a year or so - and it was prone to mould. I now only use plywood for the roofs. Western Red Cedar is very expensive but I have found that ordinary pine, treated with wood sealer and finished with Danish oil is fine for internals. Externally I also add a couple of coats of external yacht varnish. The roof I finish with gutter paint. It stands up to uV light and water well.
I think the reason that Western Red Cedar lasts is that it is resistant to rot and mould because it is acidic. I am currently experimenting with acidification of the pine that I am using by painting it with vinegar and letting it dry before sealing the pine with wood-sealer and Danish oil.

The acetic acid in the vinegar will evaporate in a relatively short time. You could try a solution of oxalic acid instead - oxalic is also stronger (ie more acidic) than acetic.

 

[Loxley]

I have made a couple of hives from oak. They looked beautiful - but were heavy as Hell. I have tried plywood but it was very difficult to stop it delaminating after a year or so - and it was prone to mould. I now only use plywood for the roofs. Western Red Cedar is very expensive but I have found that ordinary pine, treated with wood sealer and finished with Danish oil is fine for internals. Externally I also add a couple of coats of external yacht varnish. The roof I finish with gutter paint. It stands up to uV light and water well.
I think the reason that Western Red Cedar lasts is that it is resistant to rot and mould because it is acidic. I am currently experimenting with acidification of the pine that I am using by painting it with vinegar and letting it dry before sealing the pine with wood-sealer and Danish oil.

Interesting, I'd like to hear how you get on with the acidification.

 

[Loxley]

I am carpenter to I’ve used a few different types and as you are in the trade I doubt the weight of the box will bother you too much if you are getting it free. Pine is the easiest and free I’ve biscuit jointed bits together or when very lazy glued and screw. Iv painted pine box that went 3 years without another coat I could bin it if i wanted but got plenty of paint on site! Still in fine order. Roofs make out of ply all day long. Celotex for the roofs. Cls for underfloor entrances (plans on here) but frames not worth the time. When you make all your own kit you can make a nice profit I have found.

oak I think even treated would have the tendency to twist and wrap

Hi, yes as you say the weight isn't a problem for me (though I guess that could change if the boxes last 30 years!)

Yes oak can move quite a bit with fluctuations in moisture content.

Yea I'm looking forward to making the kit but I don't think I'll go so far as the frames!

 

[Loxley]

At my place 99% of boxes are made of spruce/fir.. Also as they say is important where it grows. If in some rocky, ground scarce area - better.. thicker as they claim. For the floors also the same, but if want some longer life they made the floors ( especially ones with pollen catchers) of sweet chestnut. Frames are all lime tree. I tried once plywood as bottom board ( board ply and sides spruce), and then dipped into paraffin - I must say they were really durable, even now have some of them. For the roofs You can find everything.. I liked the most when we made board of ply and sides of real wood.. Covered with discarded printed aluminum foil ( when You rest in pause You can read some articles on the roof as well ).

Hi Goran,

Yes the rule of thumb I was taught for timber quality was you want slow grown softwoods and fast grown hardwoods.

Seems like the consensus so far has been ply is fine for the roofs but solid timber is better for the boxes. I'm definitely getting an idea of how I'll proceed!

 

[Loxley]

I always use all my sawdust/wood shavings as bedding for the chickens ,I didn't realise until I was looking for bedding for the chicks that are hatching that Cedar sawdust isn't good as it causes breathing problems.

Good to know, I think that quote a few timbers have this problem once their sawn. Bedding is often sold as 'dust extracted' in the farm supplies though how they do that I don't know!

 

[Loxley]

So it seems to me that there are 3 important aspects to timber selection emerging

1. Thermal efficiency
2. durability
3 weight

Weight isn't a massive problem for me and the differences between boxes of different timbers seem marginal when the weight of the contents is taken into account (hopefully)

Durability seems pretty important as we want to maximise the amount of usage we get for the effort of making them.

Thermal efficiency seems like the most complex aspect of the whole thing. It seems to me that if the aim is just to enable the bees to keep warm then making a super insulated box and them placing it over an omf is a waste of time. But it is also apparent that the bees do prefer better insulated hives. Perhaps the insulative property's ability to work both ways and provide a more easily controlled, consistent environment internally is the key? I.e it's not just the extremes of external heat or the cold on their own but also the rapid and constant transitions between them (such as day/night temps) that are inconvenient for the bees? A cavity in a tree is presumably a very consistent environment with very slow changes in temps due to its mass and shielding from all extremes of temps.

I'm just thinking out loud here, could be way off the mark. Any thoughts on this?

And so the Final decision ends up being a compromise between these aspects and unsurprisingly Western Red Cedar is the front runner. I will probably end up trying Douglas and larch out aswell and maybe some other things in due course but I will keep the ply for the crown boards and roofs!

 

[gmonag]

Good to know, I think that quote a few timbers have this problem once their sawn. Bedding is often sold as 'dust extracted' in the farm supplies though how they do that I don't know!

Sieving (riddling) it would do it.

 

[oliver90owner]

There are other ways to separate different sized particles than plain sieving. An up-flow of air can be used to loosen and carry away dust to a collector. Coal used to be separated simply by dropping it down a long tube with rotating spokes - the larger particles being given a bump to knock them down side chutes.

I expect there are other novel approaches


Thickness of the timber, time of immersion, temperature, density - these are all variables when determining the penetration of hot wax. Air expands according to Boyles Law . State of equilibrium is necessary and the voids ideally need to remain as full of was as possible.


Omf’s a waste of time? Please, don’t be starting that again. The ambient temperature at the floor level will be the same with an OMF as with a solid floor in most situations (and most certainly in still air). Most frosts occur at low wind speeds. Wintering hives should be positioned for maximum shelter from the elements. Agreed that an OMF has far more ventilation than necessary, but the air turbulence above the OMF will not be usually that severe, Bees cluster within the confines of the comb, which will reduce any air exchange within the structure. OMF heat loss by radiation is likely as important as the ventilation aspect. I would accept that radiation losses are higher than solid floors, but is that a significant loss? I doubt it.

 

[Loxley]

There are other ways to separate different sized particles than plain sieving. An up-flow of air can be used to loosen and carry away dust to a collector. Coal used to be separated simply by dropping it down a long tube with rotating spokes - the larger particles being given a bump to knock them down side chutes.

I expect there are other novel approaches


Thickness of the timber, time of immersion, temperature, density - these are all variables when determining the penetration of hot wax. Air expands according to Boyles Law . State of equilibrium is necessary and the voids ideally need to remain as full of was as possible.


Omf’s a waste of time? Please, don’t be starting that again. The ambient temperature at the floor level will be the same with an OMF as with a solid floor in most situations (and most certainly in still air). Most frosts occur at low wind speeds. Wintering hives should be positioned for maximum shelter from the elements. Agreed that an OMF has far more ventilation than necessary, but the air turbulence above the OMF will not be usually that severe, Bees cluster within the confines of the comb, which will reduce any air exchange within the structure. OMF heat loss by radiation is likely as important as the ventilation aspect. I would accept that radiation losses are higher than solid floors, but is that a significant loss? I doubt it.

Sorry, I didn't realise (though perhaps I should have guessed) I was reopening a perhaps divisive debate. Not my intention at all. I was just thinking that dedicating so much effort to the thermal efficiency of the walls and roof but leaving the floor so open was odd.

I take all your points on board and obviously the mesh has positives in other areas and everything is a balance of strengths and weaknesses.

Thanks for the informative response!

 

[Wilco]

WRT to shavings for hens- best to use hardwood shavings as far as I'm aware. Softwood/pine substrate can get mouldy which triggers resp issues. Not sure if this is the same for bedding or just when using as substrate in the run for those with non-free ranging hens.