Thymolised feed emulsifier

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Rather than having a pissing contest it's simple to run an experiment with various allegedly suitable emulsifiers. The thymol will either stay in the body of the mix or it will rise to the top before it has been taken down by the bees. Simples!
In the meantime I will stick with Hivemakers recipe with lecithin

I entirely agree...though a p****g contest would be out of the question....
I would like to say that...I mentioned honey as an emulsifier in another post some time ago. I didn't say it would work with thymol...but it had worked with other essential oils...they have stayed in an emulsified state ever since that time ...last winter. I did want to ask if anyone had tried making the recipe with honey...but I was shot down with all guns brazing before I could mention it. However, since JBM has taken it upon himself to protect all new beekeepers from my misinformed drivel ...which I apparently spout regularly on this forum...I thought that he would be interested to know that honey is an emulsifier. Even, if only in the kitchen and not in the chemist laboratory...although many people would claim they are the same thing.
However....since you mention it...I have made some up.....it is still warm ATM so I am waiting for it to cool down to room temperature. It may well separate ...and it may only be used just prior to feeding...with a good shake to mix it through the syrup. Or I may only use it to stop mould forming on madeup syrup.... Or I might use it to perfume my Bee Barn. :biggrinjester:
 
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What are you really doing now?

I worried because I have studied biochemistry in university.
And hives do not need thymol liquid for winter.
 
I made some thymolated syrup by dissolving thymol crystals in IPA, then adding hot water and honey, mixing, and adding to hot syrup.

Didn't come out of solution, even when cooled and stood in the garage for two days. Make of that what you will!

(The missus wasn't impressed with the smell in the kitchen though!)
 
So here are some pictures of the thymolated mixture using honey instead of lecithin. It is stone cold now..I know the picture is upside down...but Photobucket won't load today. If you click on it you will see it the right way up. The mixture is thick...no sign of separation. I did swirl it before letting it stand and you can see the coating on the glass jar. I will add some to a jar of syrup and test it tomorrow for separation or layers.
Now I am not saying that this is working with thymol but it looks remarkably similar to the Hive Alive that I have.
Perhaps some others can test this out too....I can give you the proportions that I used.
If it works...then it is an alternative to lecithin...just saying....
Don't worry Finny...no- one is feeding thymol water. Some people in the UK feed thymolated syrup in the autumn as a nosema treatment. I was simply querying whether one could use honey as a emulsifier instead of lecithin.
 

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No, it won't work, no good at all.

I am really pleased you have come on this thread. May I ask why you think it won't work?
I have to say that it looks good so far.
 
No, it won't work, no good at all.

C'mon Pete - you're talking b*ll*x, you're up against some of the world's best Cordon Bleu chefs on this one, be careful or you might end up with egg on your face (or even worse, a soggy bottom)
 
Anyway....don't panic Capn Mainwaring.
I have a whole tub and if anybody wants a few teaspoons just PM me your address....It will save me having to chew through it in my coco pops :)
 
I have been trying to think of two solutions that would be emulsified by honey but its stumped me. Then again I am only a chemistry teacher.

Added;

I have assumed it is mainly a solution of 2 pentose sugars.
 
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The potassium and sodium ...as you know ...are very helpful when choosing an emulsifier.....and of course, Honey does contain oils.

I think you lack the basic understanding of the properties of an emulsifying agent. An emulsifying agent has the properties of single molecule that has a hydrophyllic bit (sticks into water) and a hydrophobic bit (sticks into the oil). Hence forms an emulsion with oil and water based molecules, which otherwise would separate into two discrete layers. Can't think of any molecule in honey that is present in sufficient quantities to fulfill that role.
 
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According to this thread, thymol has a solubility of 0.9g/l in water at 20 deg C

http://www.chemicalland21.com/lifescience/phar/THYMOL.htm

Hivemaker's recipe adds approx 1g of thymol (in an emulsified solution) to 4.6l syrup, which is a rate of roughly 0.22g/l - which is well inside the solubility limits for thymol.

It may well be that it is a bit of a git to dissolve in water, rather than its ultimate solubility - the IPA solves that by easily dissolving the thymol AND being entirely miscible in water.
 
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I think you lack the basic understanding of the properties of an emulsifying agent. An emulsifying agent has the properties of single molecule that has a hydrophyllic bit (sticks into water) and a hydrophobic bit (sticks into the oil). Hence forms an emulsion with oil and water based molecules, which otherwise would separate into two discrete layers. Can't think of any molecule in honey that is present in sufficient quantities to fulfill that role.

No lack of understanding here at all....but you know...sometimes things work when everything points to it not working....the emulsion is still standing ATM.
 
No lack of understanding here at all....but you know...sometimes things work when everything points to it not working....the emulsion is still standing ATM.

How can you distinguish between it being an emulsion or merely the thickness of the honey preventing the two un-emulsived fractions from separating?
I may have missed it but what exactly are the constituents in your honey mixture?
 
So here are some pictures of the thymolated mixture using honey instead of lecithin. It is stone cold now..I know the picture is upside down...but Photobucket won't load today. If you click on it you will see it the right way up. The mixture is thick...no sign of separation. I did swirl it before letting it stand and you can see the coating on the glass jar. I will add some to a jar of syrup and test it tomorrow for separation or layers.
Now I am not saying that this is working with thymol but it looks remarkably similar to the Hive Alive that I have.
Perhaps some others can test this out too....I can give you the proportions that I used.
If it works...then it is an alternative to lecithin...just saying....
Don't worry Finny...no- one is feeding thymol water. Some people in the UK feed thymolated syrup in the autumn as a nosema treatment. I was simply querying whether one could use honey as a emulsifier instead of lecithin.

If you want to prove this experimentally then you need to do 3 things:

1. Make up a couple of litres of thymolated syrup with no emulsifyer
2. Make up a couple of litres of thymolated syrup with lecithin
3. Make up a couple of litres of thymolated syrup with honey

Then leave for 48 hrs or so and see what separation you get.

My prediction would be

1. Thin oily layer smelling of thymol on surface of syrup
2. Syrup and thymol as a mixture/emulsion.
3. Exactly as 1.

I would like to know why it forms a liquid layer on top so is still mixed with the water and sugar rather than precipitate out of solution. I guess its to do with density which override the molecular interactions with water and sugar
 
How can you distinguish between it being an emulsion or merely the thickness of the honey preventing the two un-emulsived fractions from separating?
I may have missed it but what exactly are the constituents in your honey mixture?

The same constituents as Hivemakers recipe but instead of using lecithin in 140ml of water...use just 70 ml of honey...obviously from your own bees and 70 ml of water. So the thickness doesn't come from the honey as it is not used neat.
 
How can you distinguish between it being an emulsion or merely the thickness of the honey preventing the two un-emulsived fractions from separating?
I may have missed it but what exactly are the constituents in your honey mixture?

:iagree:

We all know that even small air bubbles take a long time to separate out of honey.
I can tell you are a scientist Thymallus. :spy:
 
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If you want to prove this experimentally then you need to do 3 things:

1. Make up a couple of litres of thymolated syrup with no emulsifyer
2. Make up a couple of litres of thymolated syrup with lecithin
3. Make up a couple of litres of thymolated syrup with honey

Then leave for 48 hrs or so and see what separation you get.

My prediction would be

1. Thin oily layer smelling of thymol on surface of syrup
2. Syrup and thymol as a mixture/emulsion.
3. Exactly as 1.

I would like to know why it forms a liquid layer on top so is still mixed with the water and sugar rather than precipitate out of solution. I guess its to do with density which override the molecular interactions with water and sugar

Thank you...I might do that if I get some lecithin. Although I don't feel the need to prove anything. I originally asked a question....but as usual the forum police couldnt help falling over themselves to shoot me down before engaging in discussion. There are ways of saying....your wrong ..without being unpleasant...
 
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Sod it all! I've bought another can, life is just too short, also bought a crate of IPA to forget I ever mentioned it! :) Winter is just round the corner.....its coming...its coming, well according to this thread it already has!
 

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