Thymolated Syrup

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Putnamsmif

House Bee
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Location
Norfolk
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I'm treating with Apiguard at the moment. Over the last few weeks I've seen several mentions of thymolated syrup. Are people talking about thymolating (not sure if that's really a word, but sounds good) Winter feed? If so at what concentration, and is it just as a 'top up' to treatment? What evidence is there to support it?
 
As I understood it, thymol in syrup helps against Nosema, and stops the syrup going mouldy
 
See the thread "What to do about Nosema" in the sticky posts section.

Rich.
 
As I understood it, thymol in syrup helps against Nosema, and stops the syrup going mouldy

Number Of Hives: Less than 100. Er, 6, actually... that was a fearful winter loss Luminos!

30g Thymol crystals
5ml iso propyl alcohol
dissolve thymol in IPA in a waterbath

mix 140ml boiling water with 1 teaspoon of lecithin.

mix both solutions to form an emulsion

add 5ml of solution to 4.6 litre syrup ( that's an old fashioned gallon of 2:1 thick syrup... although I am going with 60%... 5Kg sugar to 6 pints water... a 6 pint milk container... 3.45 litre... 3450ml)

works for me!
No Nosema or mouldy syrup
 
See the thread "What to do about Nosema" in the sticky posts section.

Rich.

In case people find this thread and not the stickied one, I think this is the relevant post :
from page 5 of the thread http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=702&page=5
Okay,will start by saying last spring i tested every colony for nosema, had 20+ colonys with heavy nosema infection,started to treat in the very mild weather in feb, they all responded really well to treatment,some were later given complete comb changes,but not all,later in spring a few more colonys also got nosema that previously tested clear,obviously drinking from the same contaminated water supply that had been crapped over by some of the infected colonys,so every hive in the affected apairys were treated.

Last autumn every full size colony and nuc was fed down with thymolated syrup,this spring have yet to find any signs of nosema in any colony,even weaker one's,and even in the one's that previously had very heavy nosema and had no comb changes,these colonys are in fact boiling over with bee's at the moment and many have had second brood chambers added,some were over wintered on double broods and are incredibly strong,some will be having two nuc's taken from each one very soon. Also as a slight side note i have detected no varroa mites in the vast majority of hives,very very few in some,and no oxalic used at all,reminds me of pre 2002 when i always fed thymolated syrup.

Poly Hive..........
The original recipe is simply 30g of thymol crystals dissolved in 150 of surgical spirit or isopropyl alcohol.........will keep indefinately and you add up to five ml of this per gallon of syrup feed,or if to simply stop fermentation 5ml per 3 gallons.
Problem with the above mixture is the oil tends to float on top of the syrup,obviously some of it is in the entire mix,but not in an equal suspension,so therefore not being stored in the combs as i would like it,and i believe is more effective if emulsified.

If you wish to carry out your own test add 10ml to a bucket containing 2 gallons of syrup,allow to settle,then with a thin tube syphon some surup from the bottom of the bucket into a clean cup,then take some syrup from the top of the bucket into another cup....then smell the difference....taste it..see which one gets you spitting for a few minutes.

Emulsified thymol pre mix.

30g thymol crystals placed in honey jar,add 5ml of isopropyl alcohol to the crystals,place jar into a water bath of boiling water to speed up the dissolving process.
In another jar pour in 140 ml of boiling water and add 1 teaspoon of lecithin granules, stir well,and place this jar into a water bath of boiling water,stirring often for abot ten minutes or so until most of the lecithin granules have dissolved,you can then strain this mixture through a teastrainer or similar to remove any granules that have not dissolved fully,then simply add the dissolved thymol to this mix,and shake well,will look just like a jar of milk.
To use add 5ml to each gallon of syrup and stir well,syrup will go milky,unlike when using the old original mix.
If the mixture forms any crystals at a later date,tip into old small pan and reheat,do this outdoors.
There are also other feed supplements availible such as vita feed,and nosevit ect,i have never tried these so cannot make any comment on them,but i will sure be sticking to what i know works well.

Ps in the past i have on occasion added two teaspoons of the old original mix 10ml per gallon with no ill effects on the bee's at all,but 5ml is plenty.
 
Not much point in treatment if they haven't got it is there ?

In a past life as a lab tech in a in London hospital I had the mixed pleasure of working in the "special " clinic.
( Back door... no appointment necessary!)

My boss said "Treat them anyway... they are going to get a "dose" anyway !!!"
 
So ... first thing to do is test for Nosema then ?

Not much point in treatment if they haven't got it is there ?

If you can find somebody in your club who can test then it's worth doing, if only to find the level of infection - because they will have nosema, it's near as dammit endemic.

With N. apis you can tell if there's a high level of infection, because there will be runny droppings on the front of the hive and the frames could also be badly marked. N. ceranae you can't see, and it's unlikely you'll be sure they have it until the colony starts to dwindle and fail.

Putting a few drops of Hivemakers thymol solution into a syrup feed won't hurt the bees. It stops the syrup from either going mouldy or fermenting. The bonus is that it reduces the level of nosema within the colony, which can increase their chances of overwintering successfully. (Don't forget varroa).

More info on Beebase
https://secure.fera.defra.gov.uk/beebase/index.cfm?pageid=191

Lots to read on Randy Oliver's site
http://scientificbeekeeping.com/?s=nosema+twins

Stuff from Advance Science, and how their product can help (I've never used it, have no idea if it's any good or not)
http://www.advancescience.com/bee-diseases/nosema
 
Not much point in treatment if they haven't got it is there ?

In a past life as a lab tech in a in London hospital I had the mixed pleasure of working in the "special " clinic.
( Back door... no appointment necessary!)

My boss said "Treat them anyway... they are going to get a "dose" anyway !!!"


I could imagine your old boss being paranoid after working in a SPECIAL clinic! or should I say the Antibiotic clinique!:icon_204-2:
 
If you can find somebody in your club who can test then it's worth doing, if only to find the level of infection - because they will have nosema, it's near as dammit endemic.]

With a microscope it's one of the easiest things to test for ... squish a few bees, mix it all up with a few drops of distilled water ... chuck the liquid on a slide easy to see the spores ... well, that's the basis:

Here's the full story:

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/sick-bees-part-13-simple-microscopy-of-nosema/

I have a 60 year old microscope but it will still do the job. I accept that virtually all colonies have some level of Nosema but they will cope with 'normal' loads without treatment - if you suspect that a colony has a problem ... and the symptoms of a heavy infection are often obvious.... then test and treat.

Every beekeeper should have a microscope ... so useful ... anything with more than 400x magnification and a light source will do for Nosema ... ebay £40 - £60 for an old one.
 
So ... first thing to do is test for Nosema then ?

Not much point in treatment if they haven't got it is there ?

There certainly is! Your bees are about as likely to be free of nosema as they are to be free of varroa, or a large comprehensive school to be free of the common cold.

The danger is when nosema reaches epidemic proportions, which is most likely to occur in winter if there are long periods when they can't get out for cleansing flights: and you wont know because it's too cold to inspect. What you gonna do about it then?

Thymol acts by preventing spores from germinating in the bees gut, thereby preventing cross-infection. At the concentrations used I've never seen or heard of any downside to treatment, after all thymol is one of the main natural flavourings in eg thyme honey. The cost is pence.

Remind me again why you wouldn't treat?



.
 
I think everybody should be putting thymol in the winter feed.
Either Hivemaker's recipe or Hive Alive....thymol with extra Irish bells and whistles.
My lot are bringing in lots of Balsam and last night's rain will help the plants along but I have thymol to add to their Ambrosia.
 
I have for the last couple of years fed the bees one gallon of the thymolated syrup this gallon been a late feed and hopefully the last feed and the first consumed going into winter.

I dont go along with feeding all the syrup thymolated as I can see this leading to potential problems. I have also managed the bees such that the one gallon of thymolated syrup has been the only feed they have required but think I will have to do a bit more this year.

Thymol defiantly works on the bees as this year as in one apiary I had a nosema problem and through a different thymolated syrup application the bees bounced back from a heavy infection. But I am concerned for the bees in that apiary as the infection came from somewhere and another round of testing is required and more treatments if required.

A friend has recently reminded me that this type of self treatment with unregistered treatments are illegal. But I think its nothing new about the treatment and as long as we apply them sensibly all should be okish.
 
I have for the last couple of years fed the bees one gallon of the thymolated syrup this gallon been a late feed and hopefully the last feed and the first consumed going into winter.

I dont go along with feeding all the syrup thymolated as I can see this leading to potential problems. I have also managed the bees such that the one gallon of thymolated syrup has been the only feed they have required but think I will have to do a bit more this year.

Thymol defiantly works on the bees as this year as in one apiary I had a nosema problem and through a different thymolated syrup application the bees bounced back from a heavy infection. But I am concerned for the bees in that apiary as the infection came from somewhere and another round of testing is required and more treatments if required.

A friend has recently reminded me that this type of self treatment with unregistered treatments are illegal. But I think its nothing new about the treatment and as long as we apply them sensibly all should be okish.

Now this I consider a sensible approach ... as a 'one off' treatment at the end of Autumn ... but, as Nosema spores multiply at an incredible rate then even this does not guarantee that a situation will not develop, if the conditions promote it. Bees have lived with Nosema for millions of years ... it's not a new phenomenon like Varroa ... if they can't tolerate it then we have to ask why ?

I cannot see any good reason for leaving sugar syrup in place in the hive over winter. Autumn feeding, if you haven't left enough honey in there or if their natural storage ability has been insufficient - then yes (though, in my mind, stored honey is far better). Syrup through the winter with thymol in it to stop it going off ? No.

If you have concerns early next year about there being sufficient stores in the hive then you should be able to tell by hefting (or weighing if you are not confident) and then, if feeding is required, fondant is the answer in my estimation or honey from the same hive if you have it stored.
 
I cannot see any good reason for leaving sugar syrup in place in the hive over winter. Autumn feeding, if you haven't left enough honey in there or if their natural storage ability has been insufficient - then yes (though, in my mind, stored honey is far better). Syrup through the winter with thymol in it to stop it going off ? No.
I don't think Tom Bick or anyone else suggested this? He was saying that by feeding it as the last autumn feed it will likely be stored right where they are clustering & they will therefore eat it first (LIFO).

Also, a bit of thymol in syrup is much cheaper than a microscope, and more likely to keep the bees healthy over winter. It's not some evil neonic, just a naturally occuring anti-microbial substance. It is like wearing a seat belt.
 
:I cannot see any good reason for leaving sugar syrup in place in the hive over winter. Autumn feeding, if you haven't left enough honey in there or if their natural storage ability has been insufficient - then yes (though, in my mind, stored honey is far better). Syrup through the winter with thymol in it to stop it going off ? No. "

as per above post - not what is being suggested. it is given as the autumn feed for bees to store.
 
I don't think Tom Bick or anyone else suggested this? He was saying that by feeding it as the last autumn feed it will likely be stored right where they are clustering & they will therefore eat it first (LIFO).

Also, a bit of thymol in syrup is much cheaper than a microscope, and more likely to keep the bees healthy over winter. It's not some evil neonic, just a naturally occuring anti-microbial substance. It is like wearing a seat belt.


Woaaa there ... I'm not averse to any treatments if they are required and effective. Thymol, as far as I am concerned, is one of the least invasive treatments ... I was actually applauding Tom's post - not knocking it.

But... reading back over some old posts (outside of this thread) I found people who appeared to be suggesting that feeding syrup over the whole winter was possible with thymolated syrup .... in order to keep the syrup from going mouldy and keep the bees free from Nosema. Clearly, I felt this was a bad idea (perhaps my previous post was less what I was thinking and more what I was writing).

Now, whether you choose to use thymolated syrup (as Tom Bick suggested) on a prophylactic basis should be a matter for consideration based upon inspection or past experience. If your bees have a tendency (and some are more prone than others) towards Nosema then it's a no brainer - hit them with the thymol syrup.

But, if your bees have a low level of Nosema spores (from microscopic analysis) and have no tendency towards contracting Nosema in epidemic proportions, consideration should be given to NOT feeding them with thymol ... I don't suggest that treating them is necessarily harmful ... just that it may be unnecessary.

Nosema can be treated, successfully, if noticed and generally appears after a prolonged spell of wet or inclement weather when the bees are not able to fly on cleansing flights ... so, if the weather in early spring gets to that point then, perhaps, it would be prudent to give them a shot of thymolated syrup at that stage.

You may be prone to sore throats but actually sucking throat sweets on a daily basis 'just in case' you get a sore throat may actually reduce your ability to ward off sore throats naturally. And before anyone starts to make an analogy to the flu jab or other such vaccinations ... the diseases they prevent can kill you.

Perhaps my thinking is flawed ... I'm not looking for an argument - I just feel that we are very prone to interfering with the bees natural ability to survive by introducing prophylactics into their own metabolism and I wonder whether we would be better doing more assessing and less treating.

I'm sure that there are many successful and highly experienced beekeepers who will be along to trash this as a philosophy but, for me, the risks are worth the gains if we can move towards a 'treat when required' rather than 'treat them because they might need it' basis.

I cannot believe that the bees like it any more than I liked a daily dose of cod liver oil when I was a kid ... what was all that about ? Doesn't happen today does it ?
 

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