Three feet or three miles

[dommod]

I've been pondering the moving of bees and was wondering if moving them three miles or more is actually bad for the colony but we don't notice the problem.

If moving more than three feet, the old saying tells us to move them more than three miles; otherwise a certain proportion of foragers will recollect at the original site. However there is a lot of information suggesting that if, after the move you shut them in for a day or so, then place a diversion at the entrance it will force them to reorientate to their new location.

Consider the effects of two possible relocations which a colony could be subjected to, (A) which is half a mile away from the original site and (B) which is five miles away from the original site. With no intervention the bees are not stimulated to reorientate. Some bees from situation (A) will happen across familiar landmarks and will be able navigate to the original site. Whatever direction bees from situation (B) fly, they will not (unless they fly really far) happen across familiar landmarks, so what happens to them? Do they find their way back to the new location.

Is it the case that on every flight some reorientation is occurring? Does this mean that when bees from sight (A) fly out, they are recreating their map of their world, but if they they happen across a familiar landmark then their old map, based on tens of flights, takes precedence over the new map based on the current flight? Or is it that unless the bees are forced to reorientate at the new location they wont?

When we move them more than three miles, just because we don't see a cluster of bees at the old location does this mean we can give ourselves a pat on the back? Or are the bees that would have made up that cluster just lost and spread thinly over several square miles? Would it be sensible to set up an entrance diversion to force reorientation even when moving a hive more than three miles so that we don't loose bees?

Particularly interested if anyone can point me towards research done on this subject.

Thanks

 

[oliver90owner]

-point me towards research done on this subject

Perhaps you might search out normal flight distances?

There is no 'certain' proportion of bees that will return to the original site and be lost. It is a variable, dependent on each and every scenario. Could be zero, could be too many for good short trem development of the colony.

Tell us, what is wrong with moving bees more than three miles? It is a fairly standard approach and many bees are moved much further distances. No bee leaves the colony in totally unknown surroundings, flies off at random and returns sometime much later from a long distance. They would almost certainly get lost over a vast area (for them). The problem is for those bees that home into their previous colony position from perhas a mile and a half or less and finish up hunting for their hive which may be a couple of miles away. Only manifested where accumulations of bees are actually evidenced at the old site.

The problem with moving them three or four times that magical three feet is that they would leave the hive in well known surroundings and would not reorientate, returning precisely to their previous known coordinates, collecting at the old site and being lost to the colony.

More than the one scenario, when you think about it in simple terms.

 

[little_john]

Personally, I don't take too much notice of that piece of wisdom - I move the hives as far as I need to (at night) within the same site, and put a thick Leylandii branch in front of the hive for a few days.

The other way of doing it - especially at this time of the year, or later - is to seal the hive entrance for a few days. I find that four days is usually enough to erase short-term memory, but a longer period certainly wouldn't hurt.

If you put a box back at the old site, you'll soon know if your strategy has worked ok.

LJ

 

[dommod]

There is no 'certain' proportion of bees that will return to the original site and be lost.

Sorry, perhaps I could have been more clear. By 'certain proportion' I intended the interpretation that given and not that the proportion is a known constant for all colonies.

Tell us, what is wrong with moving bees more than three miles?

I'm not saying there is anything wrong in moving bees more than three miles, I'm saying that there could be a case for forcing reorientation even when moving more than three miles.

My hypothesis is that if bees are not forced to reorientate, by entrance obstruction, then some of them will not make it back to the colony and this will result in slightly diminished numbers.

The evidence that supports this idea is the fact that some bees are seen to collect at the original site after a move of less than three miles. Consider the case where two colonies are relocated to the same site from two different original apiaries, one which is within half a mile of the new site and one which is more than five miles away from the new site. Now imagine two bees, one from each of the relocated colonies, who happen to fly out the exactly the same location, such that this location is near the original site of one bee, but several miles away from the original site of the other bee. Why would the first bee navigate back to her original site not her relocated site, but the second bee be able to navigate back to the relocated site?

 

[oliver90owner]

Sorry, but your evidence does not support you conclusion. You are extrapolating known evidence of returning bees to a scenario where experience has been more than adequate to form that particular general rule.

The general rule is for everyone, whether a thinking beek, a beginner or an experienced beek. It covers a whole range, thereby being generally adequate for those beeks that move colonies without any thought, apart from usi g the rule as a yardstick.

Yes, there may be a very few lost bees on opening a colony totally remote from their origin, but very few. I might suggest you observe a colony which has been moved to a completely new location. Report back to us on the number of bees which simply fly out and disappear completely over the horizon, never to be seen again. My experience is different to that.

 

[dommod]

Sorry, but your evidence does not support you conclusion.

Ultimately neither one of us has data, experience is not data.

I think I've come up with an interesting hypothesis, which is weakly supported by the evidence. If correct then then it suggests a non-invasive technique could help to maintain colony strength after a move. I'm not saying that people should immediately start obstructing their hive entrance for moved colonies based on a thought I've had, but I certainly think its worthy of further consideration, rather than just dismissing it out of hand without addressing the points I've raised.

To make my train of logic clear:

• I'm starting with the assumption that if you move a colony less than three miles some bees will return to the original site. This assumption is based on several sources I've read, such as Hooper.
• For any given bee to return to be able to return to her original location from a moved colony, she must leave the new location and then at some geographical point X into her flight 'choose' to navigate to the original location rather than the moved location.
• A colony moved several miles to the same location as the colony described above will have bees who go out foraging and arrive at the same geographical point X as the bee above, what happens to these bees? There are only two possibilities, either they are able to navigate back to their new location or they are lost and do not return to the new location.

So we have two bees at the same geographical position, who both flew from hives next to one an other. Both of those hives were recently moved, one from a short distance and one from a long distance. One of those bees makes it back to their original (pre-moved) location, why can the other bee make it back to the new location?

Just because you haven't noticed that this is a problem doesn't mean that it isn't a problem. What percentage of bees do you think you could loose before you noticed? Can you honestly say that if you lost 10% of your bees from a colony you'd notice. I've known some bee keepers who've lost prime swarms and not noticed.

I'd love to be able to do a proper experiment, labelling and counting bees in and out, but I lack the time, money and experience to embark on project of that sort of scale.

 

[rolande]

dommod, this might not be quite what you're looking for but you may find Dr Stephan Wolf's work to be of interest:

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&r...6oDYCw&usg=AFQjCNF6JbknmKLly6Fki6eSgdjSAZmncw

 

[oliver90owner]

You have made a poor claim that the bees immediately go out foraging. It is well known that scout bees initially locate the sources of forage and they transmit that information to the subsequent foraging force.

You seem to forget, or not consider, that arrival at the same point X as your initial bee will be an entirely different scenario for that second bee.

I think you need to formulate a workable hypothesis before trying to attach strong supporting evidence, even - not weak supposed evidence.

Beekeepers have been moving bees for many decades. The sensible ones follow the simple rule of thumb - the three foot, 3 mile rule - unless they give further consideration to the task, which most do if they are experienced and thoughtful in their beekeeping.

My experience is not data and I see no reason, from my past observations when moving colonies, to go bee counting. My simple observations have been enough for me. I suggest you do some for yourself.

'Just because' I have not noticed is a bit too accusing, for me. Try thinking about all those other beeks who, surprisingly, have not noticed it either. Over a period of umpteen years, as well.

I keep my beekeeping simple. No need for me to go round trying to make up problems without any real justification. I reckon you need to think a lot more about your supposed hypothesis and make sure it fits with the wealth of knowledge and information as to how bees interact within the colony and with their surroundings.

 

[mintmoth]

I hope Dommod doesn't mind, but I'd like to ask a related question that has been puzzling me - when bees swarm they sometimes make a new home within three miles of their old hive, so why don't they return to the old hive after foraging? What is it about swarming that makes them forget their old home?

 

[enrico]

I think it might be all a matter of mind set. With a swarm it is like you moving home, you wouldn't go back to the old one. However when collecting nectar they don't even think. They just zoom out of the hive to where the nectar is, load up and go back. They probably didn't even look back to see where they came from, so when it comes to time to return they are still on automatic mode......that's the way I see it.... I don't think we will ever know the true whys and wherefore's, but urgency, habit, prior knowledge, seem to play some part!
E

 

[dommod]

What is it about swarming that makes them forget their old home?

It would be fascinating to get an answer to this question.

If there were some pheromone involved in the swarming instinct and it could be isolated it would make re-homing colonies a very simple task.

 

[dommod]

You have made a poor claim that the bees immediately go out foraging.

I've not made that claim.

It is well known that scout bees initially locate the sources of forage and they transmit that information to the subsequent foraging force.

Evidence please. And even if that where true it has no baring on my argument.

You seem to forget, or not consider, that arrival at the same point X as your initial bee will be an entirely different scenario for that second bee.

Can you describe in what ways the scenarios differ?

I think you need to formulate a workable hypothesis before trying to attach strong supporting evidence, even - not weak supposed evidence.

I proposed that when you move a colony more than three miles without forcing them to reorientate first, a proportion will be lost. In what way is the hypothesis not workable? What does 'non workable hypothesis' even mean?

My experience is not data and I see no reason, from my past observations when moving colonies, to go bee counting. My simple observations have been enough for me.

I'd proposed what I thought was a genuinely interesting idea. Fair enough if you want to keep on doing what you're doing, that up to you. I didn't title my thread with oliver90owner moves bees the wrong way and should change, but you seem to have taken it that way. However if you point me to evidence as to why my idea is wrong, or can explain why my train of logic is flawed, then I would be genuinely interested.

Ultimately the only way to answer this is to count bees and I would love to do that experiment, but as I said before I lack the time, money and experience. However I do think the idea is worthy of consideration.

'Just because' I have not noticed is a bit too accusing, for me.

Really? Is an accusatory tone only acceptable when you're the one doing the accusing?

• You have made a poor claim

• You seem to forget, or not consider

• your supposed hypothesis

• make up problems without any real justification

• not weak supposed evidence

• The sensible ones follow the simple rule of thumb

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

[*]A colony moved several miles to the same location as the colony described above will have bees who go out foraging and arrive at the same geographical point X as the bee above, what happens to these bees? There are only two possibilities, either they are able to navigate back to their new location or they are lost and do not return to the new location.

Bees reorientate to a degree every morning when they first fly out thus they all know where they should fly back to thus no need to initiate this action just because it's more than three miles away - the problem comes if, during foraging they come across a location where they foraged the previous day (when the hive was at its old location) then some will default to the hive location of the day before. the three mile rule is to try and avoid foragers doing this a mile and a half is the 'normal' economical foraging radius sooo by moving them twice that far there is little (I won't say no) chance of them doing this (stumbling across a site they foraged from the previous location), this explains why, if there is a bounteous supply on the doorstep of the new location (OSR par exemplar, as in another thread on here) you can get away with less than three miles as there will be little chance of them stumbling across previous hunting grounds. Terrain is another examplwe where this may work

[*]So we have two bees at the same geographical position, who both flew from hives next to one an other. Both of those hives were recently moved, one from a short distance and one from a long distance. One of those bees makes it back to their original (pre-moved) location, why can't the other bee make it back to the new location?
.

Because it's too b**dy far!

 

[Finman]

.
Dommond, your debating is strange. You attack on eperienced beekeepers and you demand them to get to you scientific data. You will find it yourself from internet.

I have migrated hives 45 years to summer pastures and 3 miles is a good, practical rule.
It depends too on landscape, where bees used to forage.
Last summer my hives foraged autumn rape 2 miles away. In this case I cannot move to the new site, because foragers take return flight to the old site. Moving hives would be usefull because bees loose almost all yield as fuel on those long flying trips.

I have had 20 years nearest point where I move hives and mating nucs. it is 3 km (2 miles) away and no bees return on old site.


If you think middpoint between old and new site, it is 1,5 miles. It is an average distance what hive forages. daily

I do not risk my foragers by moving them too short distance.

About scientific data? ... This is so old and commont beekeeping knowledge that no researchers start to comsume money to get facts. And no one pay for that knowledge.


Dommond, only way to get data is to move your own hives and look what happens.

 

[Anduril]

I hope Dommod doesn't mind, but I'd like to ask a related question that has been puzzling me - when bees swarm they sometimes make a new home within three miles of their old hive, so why don't they return to the old hive after foraging? What is it about swarming that makes them forget their old home?

One book you will find of interest is Honeybee Democracy. A swarm consists of young and old bees. A small number of old foragers change from foraging, to looking for new sites. A fair amount of the young bees can fly but have never been outside of the hive before they swarm. 60 years of research.

 

[REDWOOD]

I hope Dommod doesn't mind, but I'd like to ask a related question that has been puzzling me - when bees swarm they sometimes make a new home within three miles of their old hive, so why don't they return to the old hive after foraging? What is it about swarming that makes them forget their old home?

Good question, first, sometimes they do return home if the queen was clipped but if they make it to a new home a whole new ball game for the bees, democracy and a new set of pheromones resets everything.
If you notice when you hive a swarm there is a period of time when they are fanning and when they are all in it is quite some time before they start foraging again. I call it the reset period and there is probably some scientific name for it but unknown to me.

 

[Anduril]

So we have two bees at the same geographical position, who both flew from hives next to one an other. Both of those hives were recently moved, one from a short distance and one from a long distance. One of those bees makes it back to their original (pre-moved) location, why can the other bee make it back to the new location?

I agree with JBM. Basically if you have moved a hive 5 miles away and there is no forage within a half to one mile away for the bees then you would be a bad beekeeper. If that particular bee finds its way back to that geographical position the hive would be starving.

 

[oliver90owner]

Well, I'm not going to bother any further with this discussion, if one could call it that, with the OP.

I am seriously wondering if he is yet another forum member who has changed his screen name, from one discredited earlier. If not, he might need to consider a similar move, IMO.

 

[Hivemaker.]

but if they make it to a new home a whole new ball game for the bees, democracy and a new set of pheromones resets everything.

How have you found these new pheromones to differ from the original pheromones?

 

[midnight sun]

How have you found these new pheromones to differ from the original pheromones?

Anything to do with mandibular gland secretions? ( 9- hydroxy-2-decanoic acid and 9-oxy-2-decanoic acid)?