Three feet or three miles - really?

[Beanwood]

So, there I was today, boring yet somebody else with my extensive knowledge of beekeeping, and I found myself explaining the "Three feet or three miles" rule - you know - because they only forage for 3 miles... theory of navigating and recognition of local landmarks back to the old hive etc etc.

Then I suddenly thought - hold on a second - think Venn diagram - if I move my bees 4 miles, then SURELY that means there would be two miles point to point 'in common' with the old site.

SO - should the rule be three feet, or SIX miles (To avoid the crossover)
or is there something I'm missing.?

 

[Shabro]

I thought that they only foraged 1.5 miles but you had to move them 3 miles so that they dont stumble upon ground they recognise and return.

 

[Chris B]

or is there something I'm missing.?

Yes. They are only supposed to forage 1.5 miles.
(But in reality many don't even go this far)

 

[REDWOOD]

I don't think the Venn diagram applies to distance only sets of values, 3 miles is 3 miles there are no overlaps or numbers that overlap or can be grouped together, correct me if i am wrong ?

 

[Beanwood]

Yes. They are only supposed to forage 1.5 miles.
(But in reality many don't even go this far)

Really? - because that's not what I've been taught, and a quick scan of 'scientific papers' (Google is my friend) seem to back up my BBKA information supplied tutor - i.e. max distance was 5983M - near enough to me for three miles

Is it just that MOST don't go that far?
Thinking about it - Fera quote apiaries within 10km - presumably that's the maximum distance for cross infection??

Sorry - still confused...

 

[Beanwood]

I don't think the Venn diagram applies to distance only sets of values, 3 miles is 3 miles there are no overlaps or numbers that overlap or can be grouped together, correct me if i am wrong ?

Sorry - I'm sure you're right - I'm FAR too many years out of school unfortunately I was trying to use it as a verbal illustration (Let me think about that for a second)..

If you draw a circle, radius of 3 units using a compass. then move the centre point of the compass 3 units away, and draw another circle, there would be a fairly reasonable intersection. (Looks pictorially a bit like a venn diagram IIRC)

OR

Think of the first two circles in an AUDI symbol - and the little bit where they cross over is the bit that I'm curious about...

Is that better?

 

[jackbee]

Studies have shown that some bees can forage up to 10km in extreme circumstances and 5.5km on average, Sheffield study

Another interesting article, how-far-do-bees-fly/ which comes to the conclusion - they fly as far as they have to

Of course this doesn't answer the original question but just shows I can use google lol and it is interesting

Is the 3ft/3 mile rule based on foraging distances or something else?

 

[Hivemaker.]

Time of year and topography plays a large part in how far they will fly...i move bees even in the middle of summer,when the weather is good,less than one mile and none return,they don't seem to want to fly from nearly sea level in one valley,up over a windswept hill/moorland that is 1,700 ft above sea level into the next valley.

 

[Beanwood]

Time of year and topography plays a large part in how far they will fly...i move bees even in the middle of summer,when the weather is good,less than one mile and none return,they don't seem to want to fly from nearly sea level in one valley,up over a windswept hill/moorland that is 1,700 ft above sea level into the next valley.

And that's your experience, which makes perfect sense thank you.

I guess the other reason I'm curious is having retrieved a (Unfortunately probably one of my own) swarm - can I the relocate it to just 50 yards from the post I found it on - i.e. back to almost where it came from?

 

[Martin Pamplin]

My understanding was that it needed to be far enough that tey would not recognize the old landmarks, so it is very dependent upon topology.

Swarms seem to reset all the old memories, mine swarmed last week and are now in a new hive 10m from the old one with no difficulties.

 

[Finman]

.
I have nearest unit 2 miles far. It works perfectly.

If there are returners to the old place, put to them a nuc that they have where to go.

.
3 feet is nonsense! 3 metres or even 5 m (yeards) is good distance to move. Bees need 2 hour time to find a new place and good weather.

.

 

[Into the lions den]

Have had bees working a phacelia field at 5.5 miles..................no doubt whatsoever they were doing it as there was no other phacelia around at that time, it was an experimental field. Bees close to it were working little else and hauling in a rapid harvest, apiaries at increasing distance were working it in decreasing numbers, and the apiary at 5.5 miles had only a couple of colonies out of 20 odd working it, and even then just a little, and no sign they were gaining anything from it.

Back to the OP, whose original intention in the question should have been asked before we all flew off at tangents, should have very few issues relocating the swarm so long as it is fresh. BUT if its not fresh then you do have a worry there. I would make sure you added some young brood for them to adopt, which tends to pin swarms to the box you give them, ensure it has plenty of space or fit a travel screen, adequate food, close it in, move it to new location, and leave it closed in for a day or two. A few bees may go back but most will reorientate.

Swarms are a different beast to established colonies for this purpose, as they seem to memory wipe their location of origin very readily once the queen/queens incorporate into the cluster at the new spot. The post would just be a resting place anyway, before moving on to a final location. There is more risk of them still going off to their final chosen destination that taking up residence on the post.

 

[oliver90owner]

The rule is for blind people. It will have exceptions but very few - few enough to be safe that not many bees would be lost.

The single point, as far as the bees are concerned is forage.

As an example, think about this - bees will not fly to the furthest fields of OSR, ignoring those closer, all other things being equal. So the three mile rule would not apply in that circumstance.

The blind beekeeper would not see that.

 

[mbc]

Amazing that no ones specifically mentioned the most important factor yet, "is there a flow on ?". Bees quickly forget landmarks and topography etc. , but if they are working any sort of flow then the journey to, and the location of the flowers is firmly imprinted. If there's nowt going on you can move a colony a dozen yards and loose next to none flyer's.
Edit: I suppose o90o's "forage" does specificallymention the most important point, apologies RAB

 

[Finman]

Bees quickly forget landmarks and topography etc. )

Bees remember at least 6 weeks. If you return the hive to home yeard, and you put it in wrong place, a swarm of bees will fly over old.But if bees return to home, put a nuc there that bees get a shelter.

 

[Skyhook]

Bees remember at least 6 weeks. If you return the hive to home yeard, and you put it in wrong place, a swarm of bees will fly over old.But if bees return to home, put a nuc there that bees get a shelter.

Really? I thought that in the season, when bees have a lifespan of about 6 weeks, they only spent the last 1/3 of that foraging- so although they would have some very local knowledge from orientation flights, I wouldn't have expected that to be more than a few yards. Or are you specificcally referring to moving hives within an apiary?

 

[Finman]

Or are you specificcally referring to moving hives within an apiary?

I migrate hives once or twice during summer. Sometimes I have moved a hive to outer pastures and then returned it to home yeard. My all hive are in home yard from September to May.

I move in apiary hives when I make false swarm, I join hives or I join nucs.

To move hives over other hives I do not make.


Once I brought a hive into a 3 hive line. Then there was now 4 hives in row.
The new hive in row had not time to reorientate and and bees drifted to neighbouring hives. After 2 days neighbours had killed the whole big hive.

 

[E1M]

3 feet 3 miles

Saw this, thought it should confuse us all even further!
http://www.purplemath.com/modules/venndiag.htm

 

[MuswellMetro]

the research done by LASI university of Sussex shows that it is normally august that they fly the greater distances as forage is poor

in august it can be up to 6km average and 10km max. but in march the distance can be as low as 1.5km

town bees have a much shorter flight pattern even in august due to availability of forage

 

[johnmcc]

From my experience in fairly flat arable farmland in Norfolk:

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=18753

I've moved hives 15 yards and one mile using the "foliage in front of the hive" method.